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Digital v Film again

Marc,
Like Austin I would appreciate knowing exactly how the medium format prints can compare to those from a Contax ND. You draw the conclusion that the ND is equal in image quality yet others might assume that the digital printing methods have not allowed the film image to be recorded to its best ability.

This important point is also central to my original claim. After all, you can print a film image digitally, but you cannot easily print a digital image conventionally. In February I claimed that a proper old fashioned photograph taken on a compact 35mm camera using a decent film will be a better image than a digital print. (I should have qualified it to say 35mm format digital). For that comment I suffered abuse and ridicule from you and others yet so far, 5 months later, no one has posted a digital image to match the scanned film images let alone the conventional photographs I sent to Michael Hahn.

I have never said that a film compact is 'better' than any digital camera. I only made claims about the image quality. I make these claims because I am sick and tired of people like you converting to digital and then telling the world that the images are as good as film when quite plainly they are not. Those claims might influence someone to make an expensive mistake. I took the same stance about APS and suffered the same ridicule from those who had bought in.

Trying to get you guys to put up or shut up is like catching soap in the bath. Every time I get near you change the subject, put up a smoke screen or just play at ostriches. You talk a good image, but can't seem to post one.

Now if you have any digital images amongst the thousands that you have taken recently that can prove your defence then for God's sake post them.

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last part was deleted by the webmaster because of Netiquette violations
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Regards,

Clive
 
> Clive,

Whew, slow down. Don't be so mean spirited to Marc (or to me)! I'm participating in this debate to learn, to teach.

And just to set the record straight, you sent me a nice set of photographs, and I sent you what I thought was a nice set of photographs. Your opening line to my set of photographs was and I quote directly from you Clive:

"I have to say that first impressions were very favourable. You must be commended on the quality of your work and of your eye for composition".

Since then, you keep thumping your chest and announcing to the world how superior your prints are to mine. You also have announced with authority that your scans are much superior to mine. Darn, I think I'm starting to feel inferior!

Film has certain beautiful advantages. Digital has advantages. Digital (35mm and Medium) can capture exquisite detail. Apparently, according to you, I and others on the list just lack the talent to demonstrate this to you.

Hey, digital versus film ... really is digital and film. Please don't hurt yourself following off your high horse.

Again, I ask, what ISO and film settings was your Angler shot taken at ...

And, how many shots have you taken this year? I have taken about 2,000 shots (300 film,) 1,700 digital. Oh yeah, I know what you're going to say. To bad I took 1,700 crummy digital shots. Hey, maybe I will get lucky and take one decent shot.

Michael.
 
Clive,

please respect the netiquette on this board. Everybody can disuss here in detail about the preferred Contax subject, but we do NOT want to have any aggressive tone or provocations to other members.

As seen already a couple of weeks ago, we are very strict in this.

Dirk
 
Charming post Clive.

I don't recall anyone ridiculing you... disagreeing yes... but personally insuting? I think not.

Evidently you cannot manage your anger and maintain a civil tongue. But you should really try.

FYI, I am still a marketing executive, gainfully employed and happy as a clam. I shoot weddings, and have for years, for the fun of sharing nice photography with people who appreciate it.

So, get a life and stop ragging on anyone who disagrees with you.

BTW, you didn't comment on the post to Lynn. What are your thoughts on such a test?
 
Hey Clive,

Tough day eh? Just wanted to touch on a comment that you made...

"This important point is also central to my original claim. After all, you can print a film image digitally, but you cannot easily print a digital image conventionally."

I personally feel that it is the other way around in that it is much more difficult and expensive to print a film image digitally than make a simple C print form a digital "negative". For me to justify printing a film image digitally it would only be in order to make a large print and would need a drum scan to be at all useful. Digital on the other hand, I can ftp to my lab and pick up a regular C print at the end of the day and it is cheap as hell.

On that note, I recently had a meeting with the manager of one of the largest film/digital labs here in NYC and was blown away by what they can produce. He gave me a tour of their facility and equipment and showed me many finished prints. I was looking at prints from 16" x 20" up to 4' x 12' and they were all stunning and 95% were made from scanned film. Needless to say I am looking back on film with a fond eye. I am planning to run a test with this lab, they are going to make multiple prints of one of my ND images at increasing sizes to see how big it can go. I have my bet in at 20x30... I'll post the
 
"You talk a good image, but can't seem to post one." Dear Clive: this post of yours has finally convinced me to get out of this forum. With no disrespect intended beyond what you have earned, you seem to be a complete asshole. As far as images posted, Marc's blow yours so far away, in every sense, that I cannot believe you would have the nerve to make the above statement. Dirk - you should know that this sort of garbage is ruining all your good work to attract a broad spectrum of Contax fans to this forum.

David
 
Oh, Lord, not this again.

David, please don't depart because of one or two bad apples in this forum. Censorship and banning can provide a harmonious environment, but that environment will be a false reflection of the world. I'm hoping that Dirk can augment the forum software to include the simplest of bottom up censorship: the kill file. This is a Usenet staple of two decades, allowing you to quietly direct postings from undesirable persons to the circular file. One man's guru is another man's obnoxious loser.

This is the simplest of mechanisms; there are myriad algorithms to construct positive associations within a forum of strangers. Free speech and freedom to associate are precious and fragile things: we just need the tools to make them flourish.
 
Dirk, Is there any possibility of promoting a Friday night wrestling - we can get the aggression out and shoot the film vs. digital at the same time.

Common coutesty please.

Ken
 
It seems we all did it again. Have you ever noticed that when you find a group of like minded people (contax / zeissaholics) you (I) initially think, "this is great! more people just like me... people who understand the aesthetics of an image produced with this wonderful magical glass...." I've had the same elation in the world of horses ... finding people who appreciate what I consider to be fine points that others miss. Then, you begin to realize that even within the fine almost elite group of people who enjoy the same things of beauty there are schisms, divisions, eccentricities, different levels of appreciation, different levels of learning. That's normal I guess. Knowing that we're more alike in this group than different, how about we all bury this line of grouching at eachother. I'll do my best not to snipe as well. Maybe we can just move forward on this comparison idea without animosity. If it takes time to get around to producing the images, that's okay by me. My summer is moving fast too. Sound fair enough? -Lynn
 
"Can't we all just get along???!!!"
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Well, I'm torn between the entertainment factor and the annoyance factor! I'm definitely not for censorship. Freedom has its price but it's well worth it. Hey, democracy's great but you have to weather out the annoying leaders during their term
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.

Dirk, you've got a live one! You're earning your money (what little you're getting - hopefully you get some entertainment value too!)

Cheers,

DJ
 
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