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Function of the FOVEON-microlenses

Hi All,

let me put a heretic question .... why do we spend our time with "somehow mastering" an extremely difficult camera, if a CANON -after all- seems to be the much easier way for a good shot?! :D:D

Well, the SD14 is a much -easier-to-handle- tool compared to former "fights" with the beast-like SD9 and former (now outdated) RAW-converters like SPP 2.1 (and earlier).
Picture noise now is a small problem with the SDs .... it used to be a big one in times of former software restrictions.

I say that SIGMA managed an immense progress with their hard-and software products ... a visible one!

Sure, I know about the Foveon-look, as many others do as well.
Why is it then, that so many (even talented and gifted) photographers pull SIGMA ti pieces?!
Have they ever experienced a tool like SIGMA's Fill light function?! Do they even know?
All these chaps writing photo magazines and camera tests ... have they spent more than a few minutes with the cam before running it down?

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See you with nice pictures

Klaus
 

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Hi, Klaus!

There are a number of reasons why I prefer to retain my SD cameras whilst none of my associates here where I live can see any advantage to change from their chosen brands.

I often shoot alongside "other brand" users and without fail my results show a clearly better DR. I have a passion for presenting a truthful rendition of what I want others to discover in my imaging.

For example, if I can see details in shadow areas at the time I release the shutter, I want that evidence to be preserved as I remember it etc.

Also, I have a dislike for "bells and whistles" that seem to be so prevalent in dSLRs these days because I wish to tell the camera what to do, NOT the other way around. I cannot accept that a camera's interpretation is better than what I can see with my own eyes. All the various "modes" and "functions" drive a deep rift between me and truth.

I was given a brain (albeit a slow one) at birth and I feel the need to use it. :) I'm from the "old school" I guess.

Sincere regards, JR
 
Hi All,

.....let me put a heretic question .... why do we spend our time with "somehow mastering" an extremely difficult camera, if a CANON -after all- seems to be the much easier way for a good shot?! ........


See you with nice pictures

Klaus




I thought that several posters have already answered that , first of all we are trying to give support to the best Sensor Architecture capable of producing Non Interpolated Images that have the same resolution on each color channel , by using ONE Photosite per Pixel , just like Color Film did ,since its invention.

A top of the line Canon camera might be easier to use, and produces good pictures that can look quite realistic , but they will never approach the 3 Dimensionality of a Foveon image .

Because the Canon's Bayer Sensor , requires at least 9 differently filtered Photosites to generate ONE Pixel, it produces images that have different Resolutions per color .

Since Green is the most abundant pixel in a Bayer sensor and Red is the least abundant , accounting for only 1/4 of the total Pixel Count , A red flower , for example, will be noticeably less sharp and the veins in the petals will have far less detail .

Not only that , but its color , also , will not be truthful , because only the red Photosites of the sensor are gathering any useful data. For that Color, a 12.7 megapixel Canon 5D becomes a 3.2 MP camera. The same resolution the Sigma SD9 has EQUALLY ON EVERY CHANNEL.

This image is not a good SD9 ,Foveon Image , but even then ,you will never come even close on reproducing this amount of detail and color nuances ,with a Bayer Sensor , regardless of its Pixel Count , because it is a design deficiency, that no amount of MegaPixels can cure . Those big Mega monster medium format digital Sinars and the like still have the same Dull , unconvincing images that lack 3 d convincing power.

Lets just be patient and hope that one day this will be the sensor technology that all cameras will use .

HAPPY THANKS GIVING!!

Luis
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When I notice the name Luis A Guevara as the poster (among others), I know I'm in for a treat that will set my mind working in overtime mode. ;)

Well spoken and explained above, Luis.

Sincere regards, Jim R.
 
On another Forum...

Luis,

On another thread you were talking about new filters that you are in the process of making...?? Would any of these be IR by chance..?? Like what LifePixel does with the UV Filter inside the camera?? If so are you making an interchangeable system for the SD14..??

Sorry for all the questions....I dabble in IR with converted D100's....but would much rather use the Sigma SD14 if they can be converted..and since the price has come down....makes it all the more feasible now.

IR Pictures posted on Sigma-Club

Thank you,

Tony C.
 
Hi,

I thought that several posters have already answered that , first of all we are trying to give support to the best Sensor Architecture capable of producing Non Interpolated Images that have the same resolution on each color channel , by using ONE Photosite per Pixel , just like Color Film did ,since its invention.

Foveon has three photosites per pixel. That's how it can measure full colour at every pixel. Film doesn't have any pixels, however, it does have three layers.

A top of the line Canon camera might be easier to use, and produces good pictures that can look quite realistic , but they will never approach the 3 Dimensionality of a Foveon image .

There's only one lens, so the photo can't be 3D. However, with clever composition and depth of field, it can give the illusion of 3D. That's something that can also be done with any camera (I used to do it with film).

Because the Canon's Bayer Sensor , requires at least 9 differently filtered Photosites to generate ONE Pixel, it produces images that have different Resolutions per color .

Since Green is the most abundant pixel in a Bayer sensor and Red is the least abundant , accounting for only 1/4 of the total Pixel Count , A red flower , for example, will be noticeably less sharp and the veins in the petals will have far less detail .

Only if it's pure saturated red. In your photo, the red petals are not saturated and they contain a lot of blue and green, so all the details will be resolved. Since flowers are never pure red, green or blue, this won't ever be a problem.

Foveon sensors have a tendency to blow out the red channel, and with a red subject, one must be careful to expose properly so as to not lose detail or get a colour shift. Sometimes red becomes a little orangey.

Not only that , but its color , also , will not be truthful , because only the red Photosites of the sensor are gathering any useful data. For that Color, a 12.7 megapixel Canon 5D becomes a 3.2 MP camera. The same resolution the Sigma SD9 has EQUALLY ON EVERY CHANNEL.

Again, this is only true if you are photographing something that is pure red, green or blue.

This image is not a good SD9 ,Foveon Image , but even then ,you will never come even close on reproducing this amount of detail and color nuances ,with a Bayer Sensor , regardless of its Pixel Count , because it is a design deficiency, that no amount of MegaPixels can cure . Those big Mega monster medium format digital Sinars and the like still have the same Dull , unconvincing images that lack 3 d convincing power.

Dull unconvincing images? An SD-9 is better than any other camera, regardless of its pixel count??

That's crazy. Statements like that are what makes people think Foveon users are a bunch of wackos. Let's be realistic!

There are cameras with lots of pixels that can outperform an SD-9 or SD-14. Some of them may be expensive right now, but the point is that a lot of megapixels can compensate for any deficiency in the sensor.

Lets just be patient and hope that one day this will be the sensor technology that all cameras will use .

What if something better than both Foveon and Bayer is developed? Canon, Nikon and Fuji are all working on it, maybe even other companies too.

HAPPY THANKS GIVING!!

You too!
 
hi,



foveon has three photosites per pixel. That's how it can measure full colour at every pixel. Film doesn't have any pixels, however, it does have three layers.

The Foveon Photosite is try layered , but it is still one photosite per sensor location , not a bunch of distribuited filtered photosites.


there's only one lens, so the photo can't be 3d. However, with clever composition and depth of field, it can give the illusion of 3d. That's something that can also be done with any camera (i used to do it with film).

I was referring to a degree of realism that is by many adressed as having a 3 d feel to it , that no other sensor provides consistenly from shot to shot.

only if it's pure saturated red. In your photo, the red petals are not saturated and they contain a lot of blue and green, so all the details will be resolved. Since flowers are never pure red, green or blue, this won't ever be a problem.

Foveon sensors have a tendency to blow out the red channel, and with a red subject, one must be careful to expose properly so as to not lose detail or get a colour shift. Sometimes red becomes a little orangey.

Yeah thanks , this is a color photograph , but is a photograph that has a large portion of the frame dominated by red and a very extended dynamic range and yet not blown out tones .

The camera does not have that tendency , but photographers do , because they treat it as a snapshot camera . Sigma cameras require photographic knowledge and user participation to apply the necessary corrections to abnormal situations , such as a single color dominating the scene.

Unfortunately because of its affordability a lot of beginners buy it with occasional bad results ,by mishandling.





again, this is only true if you are photographing something that is pure red, green or blue.



Dull unconvincing images? An sd-9 is better than any other camera, regardless of its pixel count??

That's crazy. Statements like that are what makes people think foveon users are a bunch of wackos. Let's be realistic!

There are cameras with lots of pixels that can outperform an sd-9 or sd-14. Some of them may be expensive right now, but the point is that a lot of megapixels can compensate for any deficiency in the sensor.

Your logic is faulty. Quantity and Quality are two different things .

Too much of a bad thing does not make it any better.

sigma cameras can be outperformed in ease of handling , suitability for studio imagery and fast muving subjects , but it cannot be surpassed in terms of image quality at the pixel level.



what if something better than both foveon and bayer is developed? Canon, nikon and fuji are all working on it, maybe even other companies too.

There is no such a possibility , all it is needed for faith full image capture and reproduction is Photosites capable of capturing at least 3 colors at every location. We already have that .

You could add more layers to the photosite to increase the color precision of the capture , but it will still be a layered sensor patented by Foveon.

Multilayered sensors are not the only way to capture all chromatic and luminance information at all coordinates . You can use 3 sensors instead and a 3 way prism ,and that is already being done in movie cameras and at least one minolta model .

The only practical solution is already here , but needs to evolve and that is why we have to support it.

You seem to be given to personalizing forum participation , focusing more on Semantics rather than on substance.

If you point to the Moon , with your finger , the Fool looks at the Finger
 
The Foveon Photosite is try layered , but it is still one photosite per sensor location , not a bunch of distribuited filtered photosites.

You are contradicting yourself. If it has three layers, it will have three photosites per location. Bayer has one layer and therefore one photosite per location so it must use neighboring photosites to determine colour.

The camera does not have that tendency , but photographers do , because they treat it as a snapshot camera . Sigma cameras require photographic knowledge and user participation to apply the necessary corrections to abnormal situations , such as a single color dominating the scene.

All cameras require photographic knowledge to obtain the best results.

Unfortunately because of its affordability a lot of beginners buy it with occasional bad results ,by mishandling.

Beginners get bad results with any camera if they don't use it properly.

kakou said:
what if something better than both foveon and bayer is developed? Canon, Nikon and Fuji are all working on it, maybe even other companies too.

LUIS A GUEVARA said:
There is no such a possibility ,

Really? There is no possibility that another company can develop a full colour sensor, possibly better than what we have now??? What exactly is stopping them?

all it is needed for faith full image capture and reproduction is Photosites capable of capturing at least 3 colors at every location. We already have that .

We have one version of that. It's certainly possible that someone else improves upon it, whether it's a next generation Foveon sensor or something entirely different from another company.

Why do you consider Foveon to be the only solution? Who knows what tomorrow will bring.

You could add more layers to the photosite to increase the color precision of the capture , but it will still be a layered sensor patented by Foveon.

Foveon's patent refers to determining colour by depth of penetration in silicon. There are other ways to measure colour that are different from what Foveon does.

For instance, Nikon's patent uses tiny dichroic mirrors to split the colours. Fuji uses organic dyes and Canon varies the filter colour over time. None are shipping products (yet), so it's not known if any of them will be better or worse than Foveon.

Multilayered sensors are not the only way to capture all chromatic and luminance information at all coordinates .

That's exactly what I am saying!! It's not the only method.

You can use 3 sensors instead and a 3 way prism ,and that is already being done in movie cameras and at least one minolta model .

Three sensors has its own set of problems, such as alignment of the three chips. For a high resolution still camera, it's fairly difficult to keep them precisely aligned, not to mention the bulk and weight from the beam splitters.

The only practical solution is already here , but needs to evolve and that is why we have to support it.

Foveon is the only solution currently available, but as it evolves, someone else might discover a better way. Then what? Will you switch, or are you tied to Foveon?

You seem to be given to personalizing forum participation , focusing more on Semantics rather than on substance.

If you point to the Moon , with your finger , the Fool looks at the Finger

I'm not sure what you mean by that, other than it's some sort of insult. I hope I'm misunderstanding you.
 
Kakou said: QUOTE Statements like that are what makes people think Foveon users are a bunch of wackos.END QUOTE

Before you start accusing anyone of throwing insults around, you may want to re-acquaint yourself with the above. ;)

Regards, JR
 
Heated Discussion...I think everyone missed my question...LOL

Luis,

On another thread you were talking about new filters that you are in the process of making...?? Would any of these be IR by chance..?? Like what LifePixel does with the UV Filter inside the camera?? If so are you making an interchangeable system for the SD14..??

Sorry for all the questions....I dabble in IR with converted D100's....but would much rather use the Sigma SD14 if they can be converted..and since the price has come down....makes it all the more feasible now.

IR Pictures posted on Sigma-Club

Thank you,

Tony C.


Luis,

Just in case you missed me the first time I posted...

Thanks..

Tony C.
 
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