Thanks Simon. Question....do you think the difference between 10 and 20 MP will be very obvious for routine ( even much "better" then routine ) use? Not trying to be disingenuous, but then will 40MP be that much better then 20 MP to justify the cost and effort? Indeed, when is "enough enough"?
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Leica RDigital Back
- Thread starter dirk
- Start date
old_admin_CI
Well-Known Member
Hi everybody,
the Leica Chat (not the press conference) is over now. It lasted longer then expected from 6pm-8pm German time.
We quickly copied the whole chat for you in a pdf-file and uploaded it for you in the scan/download section. Feel free to use it.
We have not had the time for a better layout, simply the raw data. But we did not want to waste any time with this. Only 500 people were allowed to be logged in at the same time, so we guess many did not had the chance to follow it.
http://www.leicainfo.com/seiten/downloads.html
the Leica Chat (not the press conference) is over now. It lasted longer then expected from 6pm-8pm German time.
We quickly copied the whole chat for you in a pdf-file and uploaded it for you in the scan/download section. Feel free to use it.
We have not had the time for a better layout, simply the raw data. But we did not want to waste any time with this. Only 500 people were allowed to be logged in at the same time, so we guess many did not had the chance to follow it.
http://www.leicainfo.com/seiten/downloads.html
Elliot
Do you remember when Bill Gates said he could not envisage a time when anyone would need more than 640K of RAM? Enough will never be enough in computers, look at how fast it progresses. Who would have thought you could have 2GHz processors in laptop computers. In answer to Dana above, it is possible because the chips run cooler, not because the fans are bigger, they can't be bigger in a laptop.
You will see 20MP + sensors in digital cameras, easily. You will also see better software. Just look at the Digic processor in the Canon EOS 10DS. A lot of processing power but superb images. Will you see a difference? Depends on what you want to do. If you use PiezoBW printing then 720dpi is better than 300dpi so you would need bigger file sizes. If you print up to 12x8 at 300dpi than 10MP is fine. You could go bigger at 200dpi.
I eventually see digital replacing my Hasselblad and a 10MP sensor just doesn't cut it. If and when I go digital it will be to replace 35mm film and 6X6 film, and then pixels will count. The more the better.
Simon
Do you remember when Bill Gates said he could not envisage a time when anyone would need more than 640K of RAM? Enough will never be enough in computers, look at how fast it progresses. Who would have thought you could have 2GHz processors in laptop computers. In answer to Dana above, it is possible because the chips run cooler, not because the fans are bigger, they can't be bigger in a laptop.
You will see 20MP + sensors in digital cameras, easily. You will also see better software. Just look at the Digic processor in the Canon EOS 10DS. A lot of processing power but superb images. Will you see a difference? Depends on what you want to do. If you use PiezoBW printing then 720dpi is better than 300dpi so you would need bigger file sizes. If you print up to 12x8 at 300dpi than 10MP is fine. You could go bigger at 200dpi.
I eventually see digital replacing my Hasselblad and a 10MP sensor just doesn't cut it. If and when I go digital it will be to replace 35mm film and 6X6 film, and then pixels will count. The more the better.
Simon
F
fastfashn
Dear Simon,
With all due respect, you don't know what you are talking about. The chips do NOT run cooler than they used to, and why do you think that a Pentium IV machine requires a higher wattage power supply than a P III machine? Hint - It isn't because the chips take less power.
Do you know why the new Apple G5 is in an aluminum instead of a plastic case and has nine fans? It's again because the newest, fastest chips TAKE MORE POWER and RUN HOTTER.
You can only pack so much heat sinking into a camera. In order to maximize the efficiency and minimize CCD noise you need to have a serious cooling system like astrophotographers use. You just can't do that with a portable camera. What do you get when your digital camera gets hotter? More noise in the picture. Why do you think they make the digi cameras have calibration periods? A medium format camera can have a bigger CCD and more heat sinking. The reason to have a 35mm camera is so you don't look like you are carrying around a water cooler on your neck. Unfortunately most digi-SLRs have reached the size of small SUVs and completely ruin any ability to blend into the background as you can with an M6/7 or a Contax G.
"In answer to Dana above, it is possible because the chips run cooler, not because the fans are bigger, they can't be bigger in a laptop."
-Dana
With all due respect, you don't know what you are talking about. The chips do NOT run cooler than they used to, and why do you think that a Pentium IV machine requires a higher wattage power supply than a P III machine? Hint - It isn't because the chips take less power.
Do you know why the new Apple G5 is in an aluminum instead of a plastic case and has nine fans? It's again because the newest, fastest chips TAKE MORE POWER and RUN HOTTER.
You can only pack so much heat sinking into a camera. In order to maximize the efficiency and minimize CCD noise you need to have a serious cooling system like astrophotographers use. You just can't do that with a portable camera. What do you get when your digital camera gets hotter? More noise in the picture. Why do you think they make the digi cameras have calibration periods? A medium format camera can have a bigger CCD and more heat sinking. The reason to have a 35mm camera is so you don't look like you are carrying around a water cooler on your neck. Unfortunately most digi-SLRs have reached the size of small SUVs and completely ruin any ability to blend into the background as you can with an M6/7 or a Contax G.
"In answer to Dana above, it is possible because the chips run cooler, not because the fans are bigger, they can't be bigger in a laptop."
-Dana
bleacherbum
Member
> Wow!!! I have heard of "flaming" someone but you have taken it to the next
C
Craig24
Thanks for clarifying the these technical details Dana
Simon if you want the sort of quality you are talking about, get a digital back for a 6x6 format camera. It’s going to cost a wee bit more than your beloved EOS 10D though. Digital Phot and MF is a way better marriage of technologies than the “35mm†route which IMHO still has an will have in the foreseeable future limitations.
Craig
Simon if you want the sort of quality you are talking about, get a digital back for a 6x6 format camera. It’s going to cost a wee bit more than your beloved EOS 10D though. Digital Phot and MF is a way better marriage of technologies than the “35mm†route which IMHO still has an will have in the foreseeable future limitations.
Craig
So let's play devil's advocat here:
Let put ourselves in the shoes of Leica. What could they have done better in their current situation with descreasing Leica sales numbers and increasing demand for digital cameras?
First, a new lens mount would have broken their neck financially. The development of the R8 costed over 35 Mio DM (ca. 17.5 MIO Euro). This was one of the reason of the unsecure future after the IPO. And this was one of the reason why there was no way back to the old, smaller bodydesign (lens mount stayed the same).
If they would design a new lens mount, they have to offer also AF. This makes it even more complicated and more expensive. As we have seen with Contax, it is not that easy for a newcomer in AF to get it the first time perfectly done. And today nobody compares it to the first models of Canon or Nikon, they compare it to the 6th generation AF Top-of-the-line bodies.
The old Leica lenses would have been obviously useless in that case too. The solution Contax tried with the AX (AF by shifting the backplate und using still MF-lenses) was not really accepted in the community. So also no alternative for Leica 10 years later.
Secondly, the investements of the Leica costumers are significantly higher in this lens mount (body AND lenses), than for Canon or Nikon costumers. So a change would have hurted them a lot more.
Thirdly Leica has the same problem as any manufacturer nowadays: They have to make a decision today about a totally unknown future development within the next 2 years. The busines nowadays is very different than 10 years agao, when only film cameras played a role. Since digital innovation is so fast (like in computer industry), you make basically a bet what will be the right features/size/MP etc in 2 years.
In the computer industry it is even easier, because you have always the same box and you exchange only the internal parts. You can not do this with cameras. And ühotographers will not buy every 2 years a new 3000 USD camera, just because the specs are 2 years later differently.
So it makes sense to have waited so long for this. And it makes sense (if the assumption of Leica is correct) to offer a 10MP back. If it is true, that after a certain pixel amount, the further increase will be less significant/viewable, then we might really come with 10MP in a range which will be sufficient.
There are other sources who are stating that the Canon 1ds would rival medium format. Although I do not believe this (but have never compared), it shows that there must be a kind of "common sense" number, which will be enough for 99% of the users. Check yourself: How many prints have you done in the past bigger than A3? Even Contax ND owners are happy with a fullsize 6MP camera.
If 10MP is enough to print excellent A3-size images, I doubt that many Leica users (or even Canon and Nikon complainers) will worry about a competitor's 20MP camera. This is not the game "mine is bigger than yours".
We are talking about spending significant money here and I am sure many people will look very closely whether it is worth it to spend even a dollar more on something they do not need and can not see in their own prints.
Again, if the assumptions are correct, then also the argumentation, that the life-cycle of digital cameras will slow down and the models will not be replaced every 12-24 months. In this case a 10MP camera can stay there for a long time. Canon will not bring out a 20MP camera, if there is a risk that they can not sell enough of them. And looking at the argumentation above, it looks like it.
Last but not least, another issue is the quality of the chip - not the amount of pixels. For ex&le the size, the reaction to colours, noise, dust problems etc. I am sure that we will se many improvements there, but this is separated from the number game.
Look at the new Fuji Velvia 100F. Everybody waited for it and now it seems that the first reviewers are disappointed and prefer the old one, which came out 15 or 20 years ago. This shows also that there is a limit sooner or later, where you can not improve something anymore significantly. And then everybody will hesitate to spend for it additional money.
Leica is not stupid. They want to survive. So they talked with the industry specialist like Kodak etc. and based of there insights, made their decision.
The SD card for ex&le might sound strange in the moment, but it is a fact that it is smaller and smaller means in this industry also more future. It is not the question what is standard now, it is the question what is the standard in 2 years from now. And the SD cards have a great chnace to be it. Using a CF card would have made the body also even thicker. If you had already a R8/R9 in your hands, you know that this would kill the sales even more.
But because of this argument, I do not understand why they did not choose USB 2 instead of firewire. In 2 years IMHO, you will have a hard time to find firewire on new computers. But USB 2 will be there 4x in each computer. My guess is that there is either a technical restriction or, as the IMACON guy said in the press conference, they have just more experience with it. IMHO not a good argument. Leica buyers want to keep that back probably for 5 years (gosh, 900 euro per year...). Would be a pitty if they could not connect it to their computer without an adapter.
Looking at all this, the announcement was the only right thing Leica could have done. Everybody knows now that they have only "hot air" in their hands, only some signed contracts and estimations. Read the Chat and you will see that they basically can not say anything specific about the DR Back.
But do not undersestimate the signal that they gave to many Leica users. Just because of this, the current costumers will not switch to another brand before they have not seen the first testshots with this back. Leica users have made a long decision making process before they purchased Leica products. And they will not chnage their minds just like that.
As I always say to my clients, "the last thing that dies in a human mind is the hope". So Leica costumers will hope - and wait. And this gives Leica 2 more years to breath.
Dirk
Let put ourselves in the shoes of Leica. What could they have done better in their current situation with descreasing Leica sales numbers and increasing demand for digital cameras?
First, a new lens mount would have broken their neck financially. The development of the R8 costed over 35 Mio DM (ca. 17.5 MIO Euro). This was one of the reason of the unsecure future after the IPO. And this was one of the reason why there was no way back to the old, smaller bodydesign (lens mount stayed the same).
If they would design a new lens mount, they have to offer also AF. This makes it even more complicated and more expensive. As we have seen with Contax, it is not that easy for a newcomer in AF to get it the first time perfectly done. And today nobody compares it to the first models of Canon or Nikon, they compare it to the 6th generation AF Top-of-the-line bodies.
The old Leica lenses would have been obviously useless in that case too. The solution Contax tried with the AX (AF by shifting the backplate und using still MF-lenses) was not really accepted in the community. So also no alternative for Leica 10 years later.
Secondly, the investements of the Leica costumers are significantly higher in this lens mount (body AND lenses), than for Canon or Nikon costumers. So a change would have hurted them a lot more.
Thirdly Leica has the same problem as any manufacturer nowadays: They have to make a decision today about a totally unknown future development within the next 2 years. The busines nowadays is very different than 10 years agao, when only film cameras played a role. Since digital innovation is so fast (like in computer industry), you make basically a bet what will be the right features/size/MP etc in 2 years.
In the computer industry it is even easier, because you have always the same box and you exchange only the internal parts. You can not do this with cameras. And ühotographers will not buy every 2 years a new 3000 USD camera, just because the specs are 2 years later differently.
So it makes sense to have waited so long for this. And it makes sense (if the assumption of Leica is correct) to offer a 10MP back. If it is true, that after a certain pixel amount, the further increase will be less significant/viewable, then we might really come with 10MP in a range which will be sufficient.
There are other sources who are stating that the Canon 1ds would rival medium format. Although I do not believe this (but have never compared), it shows that there must be a kind of "common sense" number, which will be enough for 99% of the users. Check yourself: How many prints have you done in the past bigger than A3? Even Contax ND owners are happy with a fullsize 6MP camera.
If 10MP is enough to print excellent A3-size images, I doubt that many Leica users (or even Canon and Nikon complainers) will worry about a competitor's 20MP camera. This is not the game "mine is bigger than yours".
We are talking about spending significant money here and I am sure many people will look very closely whether it is worth it to spend even a dollar more on something they do not need and can not see in their own prints.
Again, if the assumptions are correct, then also the argumentation, that the life-cycle of digital cameras will slow down and the models will not be replaced every 12-24 months. In this case a 10MP camera can stay there for a long time. Canon will not bring out a 20MP camera, if there is a risk that they can not sell enough of them. And looking at the argumentation above, it looks like it.
Last but not least, another issue is the quality of the chip - not the amount of pixels. For ex&le the size, the reaction to colours, noise, dust problems etc. I am sure that we will se many improvements there, but this is separated from the number game.
Look at the new Fuji Velvia 100F. Everybody waited for it and now it seems that the first reviewers are disappointed and prefer the old one, which came out 15 or 20 years ago. This shows also that there is a limit sooner or later, where you can not improve something anymore significantly. And then everybody will hesitate to spend for it additional money.
Leica is not stupid. They want to survive. So they talked with the industry specialist like Kodak etc. and based of there insights, made their decision.
The SD card for ex&le might sound strange in the moment, but it is a fact that it is smaller and smaller means in this industry also more future. It is not the question what is standard now, it is the question what is the standard in 2 years from now. And the SD cards have a great chnace to be it. Using a CF card would have made the body also even thicker. If you had already a R8/R9 in your hands, you know that this would kill the sales even more.
But because of this argument, I do not understand why they did not choose USB 2 instead of firewire. In 2 years IMHO, you will have a hard time to find firewire on new computers. But USB 2 will be there 4x in each computer. My guess is that there is either a technical restriction or, as the IMACON guy said in the press conference, they have just more experience with it. IMHO not a good argument. Leica buyers want to keep that back probably for 5 years (gosh, 900 euro per year...). Would be a pitty if they could not connect it to their computer without an adapter.
Looking at all this, the announcement was the only right thing Leica could have done. Everybody knows now that they have only "hot air" in their hands, only some signed contracts and estimations. Read the Chat and you will see that they basically can not say anything specific about the DR Back.
But do not undersestimate the signal that they gave to many Leica users. Just because of this, the current costumers will not switch to another brand before they have not seen the first testshots with this back. Leica users have made a long decision making process before they purchased Leica products. And they will not chnage their minds just like that.
As I always say to my clients, "the last thing that dies in a human mind is the hope". So Leica costumers will hope - and wait. And this gives Leica 2 more years to breath.
Dirk
Hmm, Dana, I think you need to look at how digital has improved over the last five years. A current 14MP Kodak has less sensor noise than the old Nikon Coolpix 900 I bought five years ago. Does it have a big fan, no. Does it have lots of air inside, no. Does it do it by improvements in sensor design and software, absolutely yes.
So, you will see 20MP sensors, they will be in cameras and they will work. Period.
Simon
So, you will see 20MP sensors, they will be in cameras and they will work. Period.
Simon
H
henry
Really nice article, Dirk. I can not agree more on your suspection of=20 comparing the quality of Film and that of Digital. I appreciate your=20 conclusion as well, which is reasonable and not biased. Not only Leica=20 wins 2 years to breath, but also maintains potential customers to buy R8=20 or R9 system with a hope of upgrading it to DR back. This is of course=20 what all the Leica fans hope -- give this extraordinary optic system a=20 new life. I am waiting for a DM back, with X3...