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Regarding Contax N digital and Leica digital back

fotografz

Well-Known Member
Clive, exactly what is it that you think you will learn from these extremely long winded, tecno duals between a couple of competitive egos going at each other?

This is a PHOTOGRAPHIC forum about CONTAX PHOTOGRAPHY. Shouldn't it be devoted to that subject? There are many sites dedicated to technical issues with a lot more expert opinions and EXAMPLES to counter balance one another.

Talk is cheap, and internet talk is even cheaper. Pictures on the other hand speak volumes.
 

hdfuhrman

Active Member
Dirk,
I am not sure exactly what conclusion I can draw from the discussion. I, however, believe this thread was one of the most lively exchanges of ideas. While I would prefer that everyone deal with informed opinion rather than have some of the contributors dwell on who has better the credentials, the discussion also included a heated exchange of information from different people who have different points of view.

Even though it appeared Finney took personal offense to some of the discussion as an attack on him, rather than needing further support for his point of view, I support Shu-Hsien and Clive that Austin's and Finney's involvement made this discussion much more interesting and thought provoking. I would request that you reconsider Finney's exclusion from the forum. If you do permit him to remain a member of the forum, I would then ask Finney to be a good citizen, as I feel that he has alot to contribute, however I would prefer that he confine his comments to the subject not to the people.

Howard

ps I thought someone asked in this forum what scanner would be recommended. I was disappointed that the question was not addressed with the same fervor as the other issues covered. I would be interested in the forum's opinion and recommendations since Minolta just introduced 5400 dpi model. I thought with the collection of quality participants on this forum, I would get the best informed opinion.

hf
 
W

writing4me

Sorry to disagree with your assessment, Marc. I too would like to see Finney stay with the list, if possible. Aesthetically, I can't find any glass producing more pleasing images to my eye than zeiss. Technologically, I see a company (contax) poised to be able to do greater things than they have already. However, there is something missing in my opinion yet, and I enjoy these sorts of discussions to help me understand where and why the aesthetics and the technology fall short of meeting eachother in this new age of photographic wonders. Sure, a picture speaks volumes, but I also want to know the "why" of what I see. You do good work with the ND and the TVSD, Marc. I enjoy the chance to analyse the photos, but I also like to know the limitations of these things for my own work, so I know how far I can push such images, and what I can expect of them. But if I'm in the minority of wanting to hear such things, maybe I'll have to see if I can strike up private conversations off the list instead. -Lynn
 

loom

Active Member
Dear Mark,

If you think this whole thing is a "duo", than simply deleting one side's account doen't solve the problem. Why not delete both accounts? It would just make the opinions on this forum to be monotonous.

Apparently the thread is off topic now, but I believe that happens from time to time, and don't nessessarily suggests deleting one's account. From the starting of the thread it WAS about Contax photography, on the digital side. And, one can always delete those off topic posts, instead of deleting one's account. Nevertheless, there is no interest of Finney to be on this forum, and it was not until Austin's attacking his credential and beliefs did he show up.

Let's enjoy the weekends. I will try to organize my photos of Nova Scotia.

-Shu-Hsien
 

afranklin

Well-Known Member
How on now, Shu-Hsien,

> ...it was not until > Austin's attacking his credential and beliefs did he show up.

I didn't "attack" his credentials, I only pointed out that being involved with, what was reported as "IT" does not mean that someone knows anything about digital imaging, that's it. Do you expect your plumber to know anything about digital imaging because s/he is a plumber? Same thing.

Also, it was not "beliefs" that I challenged, it was someone claiming facts that were completely unsubstantiated...not beliefs. This has happened with him before in Alexander's Contax group, and not only I was "put off" by this behavior of his.

I wish not to talk about him, as he is not here, and I do not believe it's fair to do so...but please, don't make claims about me, and expect me not to respond!

Regards,

Austin
 

loom

Active Member
Dear Austin,

Sorry about the misleading wordings. I believe you were with good intentions.

IMHO it would not be Finney that'd "hurt" by deleting his account, and therefore making this kind of punishment deviated from its intentions.

Best, Shu-Hsien
 

narrbl

Active Member
Hello Marc,

Well, we are trying to tone it down to normal, here, aren't we, and that takes care of that side of answering I hope, in one or two senses. And then I'd like to respond on another side of your question mostly by posing a query of my own which I have been harboring for a while for the right time. This had better be over on the TVS forum which I presume you also read, since it is about that camera even if it is also mentioned here.

But let me try a little if I can directly, at least as it seems to me this evening, out in a wooded Oregon of the US for the time being. Pictures indeed can speak volumes - but only if one has enough knowledge to interpret and develop on what they may personally say.

As far as I can see it, photography has always been an art as embedded as any in its technologies - not different in principle from locating and grinding your own Lapis Lazuli, then adding the oils and solvents and whitewashing the canvases, before picking up a brush, if you were Hans Holbein (possibly my eras are slightly out of step there, hope not).

It gets to be more so nowadays, as there are very apparently some complex interactions between lenses and sensors and processing that change the rules of several games. Film at least allowed us pretty much to separate - know something about lenses, something about mechanisms, and something about films - then develop tastes for different combinations we liked to make (and remember the discussions about these!). And, we could choose one at a time, develop the others independently.

In digital, it's an ensemble which we cannot so easily control that clearly counts. When you can have two cameras as similar even to sensor technology, and as different in results, as the TVS-D and the Canon S50, for my interested ex&le, there seem definitely relevant questions. One has to learn things, come to understand, which one can get the clarity and depth of blue you want, as if it were pigments - and how you can think to influence the result.

Very often that information can be found only between the points of view of several persons who are quite interested in the subject. It's a great challenge of these days, not just in photography, to learn how we can provide opportunities, and learn manners to speak, where this works best.

A Chinese woman, president of a company, who I worked with for a while in a venture in Europe, gave me a nice proverb on this topic, which really was much our actual business, about 'three shoeshine men being equal to one strategic genius' (a particular general's name, in the real language of the saying).

Here in this forum we are trying something like that story and it is fruitful. The one thing older cultures don't help us as much in, to say with appropriate understatement, is where we need to build a new kind of respect and appreciation, thus treatment, between younger and older practitioners. We all live and develop and contribute in stages which can only be reached from that development longer now. We clearly need the fruits of all stages, one more ecology in our real world.

I think it's worth our patience to look at the plants at their different moments, help the seeds grow, and branches train, knowing storms or seasons may come again, then with better accommodated effects, and anyway don't last.

Best and regards to you, Clive
 

hdfuhrman

Active Member
Clive,

After the heat of battle - "Calm, peace, reconciliation, and reflection." Clive - you are a person whose comments I respect and now I find that among your many virtues, you are a thought provoking philosopher. I appreciate your last comments and will reflect on them.

Good nite,

Howard
 

fotografz

Well-Known Member
Clive and all. I did not advocate the expulsion of anyone from this forum. That is strictly Dirks'
call. Responses indicating that I did are incorrect.

I also understand the desire to be informed about ever changing digital options when the catagory is still in a relatively initial stage of development. The problem as I see it is the amount of misinformation...and the lack of an informed counter balance on a forum like this who's primary purpose is dedicated to something else. The moderator is not a MIT professor of digital engineering, he is a passionate photographer.

Yet, perhaps out of this can be born new ideas. For ex&le...

In the past Dirk has gone directly to informed sources for information. There are people who
do have established credentials, and are on the forefront of digital development. Perhaps an exchange between a "guest" and ourselves
would weed out the personal exchanges that force one to wade through endless posts featuring a few precious nuggets of potentially valuable information. It's just a thought, born from the excellent exchange between Leica technical people and Leica photographers that took place recently.

Clive, as poetic as your response was, I still can't figure out the practical value of these current exchanges. Your ex&le of painting doesn't resonate with me. I am a painter, both by training and practice. Artist do not spend endless hours discussing the merits of Thalo Blue verses Azure Blue. Or which brush is better. They simply DO it and see. In truth photography does involve more science, especially now. Yet it is still about the image regardless of the science.

The ex&le of the TVSD verses the Canon S-50 is best understood by looking at the comparison side-by-side. An exercise both Irakly and I have provided in the past for a number of different digital cameras. We need not have provided those comparisons on the test gallery for any other reason than to demonstrate the answers to questions others have asked. We already know the results ourselves.

I am not pressing for the elimination of exchanges like this thread has provided. I am only trying to figure out what any of it has to do with making better pictures. How does one use the information? Nothing here tells me which digital/lens combo will do a specific job at hand. Which scanner? Which PhotoShop plug in will strengthen the weakness of a specific digital camera? SOMETHING practical that can be applied.

For ex&le, my latest comparison between the TVSD and a Leica M was designed to determine whether a Digital P&S could be used to good effect for street photography (which is the traditional territory of rangefinders). The results can be found on the regular Gallery areas for Contax and Leica...or in my overall portfolios (some images are already being knocked off the Gallery page by new uploads, and it's critical to see all of the entries for the compairson). BTW, this idea was initiated on another forum, but had applications here since the P&S I used was the TVSD in comparison to my Leica M7 (and the new Canon G5). So, there are some practical applications to be learned about "controlling the digital capture/ lens combo" that you mentioned Clive. Practice reveals technique. Technique practiced reveals results. As the Nike ads say "Just Do It!"

Anyhow, good shooting to all of you, and post some photos for all to enjoy and learn from.
 
M

mike_nunan

Howard,

Yesterday I was delighted to take delivery of one of the very first batch of Minolta 5400 scanners in the UK. I have been discussing this unit on and off with Vincent Oliver and the members of his Photo-i forums, so I won't duplicate my report here. If you're interested, take a look at the following thread on Photo-i:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!



Marc,

Without wanting to fan the flames of the "negative" side of this thread any further, I feel it's a touch disingenuous to ask why "a site dedicated to photography is so loaded with technical babble". We are touching on issues here that are at the cutting edge of digital imaging technology and knowledge. It is very hard to get firm answers to a lot of the questions that have been raised, so the presence of one or more individuals who may have the industrial background and experience to answer them is hugely valuable, despite the unseemly chest-beating that has gone on. If you think that the ability to create beautiful and powerful images is unrelated to technical knowledge and awareness, then where does that leave the likes of Ansel Adams? Like it or not, photography is more dependent than most artforms upon technique, and this thread is one thread, not the whole forum. The discussion here has been very relevant as far as I'm concerned, and it seems I'm not alone judging by several of the comments above.

Your point about the practical applicability of the scientific and engineering aspects is fair enough, but until we have the base knowledge then how can we formulate good working practices? Going back to Ansel for a parallel, he couldn't have created the Zone system without a solid understanding of the deep technical aspects of film response characteristics, exposure and processing effects. The discussion we are having here is trying to pin down some of the equivalent basic elements within the uncharted reaches of the digital domain.

Best regards,

-= mike =-
 

fotografz

Well-Known Member
Mike, I fully understand the connection between technology and image making. No need to get personally irritated by my simple question as to what practical application anyone is getting from this. Everyone keeps supporting the deluge of tech info, but no one is answering that simple question...what does it mean? It's an honest question at least from me. I don't see it's value, and I'm sure there is some value...but it needs to be applied to something useable don't you think? Not everyone is an engineer. Even Ansel Adams made his discoveries tangable with prints.

I'm just trying to make the babble accessable to people who make photographs.
 

hdfuhrman

Active Member
Mike,

Thank you for the link on Photo-i on the Minolta 5400 35mm film-slide scanner. It is the first independent review I have seen on the 5400. The initial review is positive and the reviewer is doing futher testing and evaluation as we speak--I expect a follow up review after this weekend.

I think that a scanner with my G2 may be my best alternative until the technology of digitial camera photography evolves further. My criteria for a digital camera would be small, light, affordable, film-like quality, great interchangable lenses, fully featured, quick and instantous autofocus, no delay between shots, and full frame 35mm sensors (I shoot a great deal wide angle and do not want to multiply the lens focal length by a factor). Except for the fact that my Contax G2 is film camera, it meets all the criteria except it is not digital (9 out of 10 is not too bad). The Canon 1Ds meets most of my criteria, except affordability, weight, and size. I think many of the 1Ds qualities will migrate to more afforable alternatives over the next few years. Besides I have 4 excellent G2 CZ lenses and no autofocus Canon lenses. Despite uninformed wish rumors, I do not know whether there will be a future G2 digitial equivalent. I feel a quality scanner would satisfy my current objectives and give the industry and Contax more time to develop a camera that meets my criteria.

Howard
 
W

writing4me

There is always the delete button (if you read via email) or the scroll-down-arrow if you read on-site. If you don't like the technical talk, feel it doesn't have a place, or just can't see it's merit, just don't read it. There are certain posts by certain people that simply don't interest me, and guess what? I don't tell them I think they are pompous, I just delete them. I suspect others might do the same with my own posts, which could sometimes be boring, or irritating depending on your point of view. Fine with me. No hard feelings. That's life. Keep the parts that are of use, importance and relevance to you, and throw out the rest. But please don't decide that if you don't like it, or can't figure out it's merit, that the rest of us do should not have access to it. (Of course, Dirk can decide that because he's list-dad, but that's different) -Lynn
 

fotografz

Well-Known Member
Lynn, you misunderstand, the technical information IS of value. I am just asking those who have such information to apply it in some practical form that benefits a greater majority, not just a few.

Let me repeat, I NEVER said remove someone from this forum. I NEVER said anyone was pompous. I NEVER said other people shouldn't have access to the info posted here. I only asked a simple question that no one seems able to answer.

Lynn, you said you wanted to know how technology limits your ability to push such images. Is that question being answered by this info, and if so how? I am genuinely interested for the same reasons you are.
 

narrbl

Active Member
Good morning, Howard, and this was certainly nice to find...thank you.

I'm only a little concerned though to realize that there are really two 'Clives' on the forum at the present - this is probably a fairly unusual if nice situation for both of us. I'm the quite new one, and probably don't deserve the praise you probably remember for an older friend. He's sure to enjoy what you've said, though, and that makes matters quite well.

A perfectly beautiful morning here in this place, and I am going to walk over to find some breakfast.

Best to you both, and regards, Clive Steward
 
M

mike_nunan

Howard,

The scanner vs. DSLR issue is a tough one to call. I have decided to stick with film for the near future, but if someone gave me a 1Ds then I'm sure I'd love it! The way I see it, the benefits of digital stack up like this: smooth images, no scanning hassle, instant feedback, ability to vary ISO on a per-shot basis, no film flatness worries, no concerns about airport X-rays and of course you can blast away without worrying about wastage, which can be creatively liberating. Film gives you: higher sustained frame rates, easier image storage, more choice over look and dynamic range by choosing film/developer appropriately (including a classic grainy look if that's what you want), cheaper bodies so having several is more feasible, ultimate sharpness using fine-grained B&W films, speed beyond 1250 or 1600 when necessary, ability to project slides, no sensor cleaning problems and (on the flip side of the "blast away" attitude of digital) a more considered way of working that can foster better craft.

For me, there will never be one camera that will do it all, and there isn't enough choice in the market for me to consider going all-digital right now. I have four systems that I use on a regular basis, and while it would be possible to splash out on a 1Ds to sit behind my Canon glass, where would that leave my RTS II, Oly OM and Mamiya 6? As long as I have even ONE film-based system that I care about, I need to face up to the scanning challenge, so my strategy has been to ignore digital capture for the time being and put my money and effort into the scanning side.

I'm really hoping that the Minolta 5400 will "slay the beast" for 35mm, as that would be a big step forward. I'm looking forward to giving it a good pummelling over the weekend to see where I can trip it up. What I didn't mention in the Photo-i posting is that I'm planning to do back-to-back comparisons with the Imacon 848, as a friend has cheap access to one. (This is the king of CCD scanners, with 8000ppi resolution and an actively cooled sensor. The price is an actively cool £12000 however...)

Neg is the real issue, that and low-key chromes, especially Kodachromes. I suspect that if I find the 5400 acceptable, then most other people will too, as I keep hearing that I'm fussy and my expectations are too high. I had an Epson Perfection 3200 for a short while, a unit that others raved about, but found it to have unacceptable shortcomings. Ditto the Canon 9900F. My Nikon LS-30 is reasonably sharp but has terribly coarse tonality that rules it out for fine print making, especially in monochrome. When I visited Salgado's amazing Exodus exhibition recently, I was shocked to see scanner artifacts in many of the portrait images in the upstairs gallery. I suppose at least I felt I was in good company with my scanner problems!

But anyway, keep watching the Photo-i thread, and I will update it as things progress over the weekend.

Best regards,

-= mike =-
 

loom

Active Member
Finney confirmed that he was kicked out of the list. He think it's hilarious though. The story between him and Austin can be traced back for years, and the truth is yet to be found here. Besides, he will get in trouble if National Semi and Texas Instrument found him saying something sensible on th net. Just like what I said, his showing up here was to contribute, and kicking him off does not do any good to the forum, except for being more peaceful in the surface, and to give an ex&le of the users agreement.

He was the one who gave me explanations why I cannot tolerate the images from Canon S30 while every single reviewer online appraised it so much. He is also the one who told me the difference of CMOS and CCD sensors, in words so clear and so untechnicall that I can understand totally and how Canon made the images so clean, and why the images from N digital are sometimes noisier than others. Finney also confirmed my believing, that in technology world, Kyocera do have great resources to do things right and to carry out innovations. For instance, Kyocera is the leading company of solar plates in the world, and many people around his neighborhood in Silicon Valley has their products on their roof. Besides digital stuffs, he also gave me comparisons of MC filters from different vendors, e.g. Contax, B&W, Heliopan and Hoya, and the comparisons of pictures taken by RTSIII and others without the vacuum back.

That was just one of the many ex&les. From now on I don't think I'll be willing to refer to his post here on the forum any more.

It kinds of remind me some history that I know of. 4000 thousand years ago, when China was composed of 7 countries, it was the golden era for great thinkers and great philosophers, e.g Lao-Zi. Later on one of the countries united China for the very first time, and made it the Zing Dynasty with the first emperor, and shortly after the Han Dynasty rouse. There was one emporor later adopted and modified one of the theories and made it the "standard". The theory apparently favored the control of a government and emperor. That marked the begining of the dark era in the history of Chinese philosophy. It was not until 1000 years later, the rise of Tan dynasty, given its multiple social background and the mixing with other races in China did the different kinds of thought and philosophy bloomed and flowered.

In more modern times, 300 years ago the Ching dynasty closed all its sea ports and forbid contacts with the western world. Later it found itself lagging very very much behind in terms of technology and thinking, and then comes all the sad and worming history of modern China.

Oh, I think I am going away too much. It is just a forun afterall.

Happy shooting

Shu-Hsien
 

hdfuhrman

Active Member
Mike,

You are certainly prolific. You respond throughtfully and quickly on this and other forums and still find time to test the 5400. I will be watching the Photo-i thread to see how your evaluation progresses.

Isn't amazing that I am in Southern California and will enter this message at about 9:00 AM PST and the forum enters it in instanteously at 6PM? Since you are living in the future, please give me some end of the day stock prices or the future results of horse races. With all the money I can make from knowing the future, I can purchase a Canon 1Ds for both of us. (If it was only that easy?)

Best regards,

Howard
 

narrbl

Active Member
Hello Mike,

I wonder if you'd mind outlining where you found problems with using the=20 Epson 3200? I've have one a few months and am working through old family=20 films - had been considering that maybe my own answer to some photo=20 challenges also could be to put digital on a more shared basis, and get the= =20 Leica M2 and lenses of my father's which took some of these photos=20 refurbished to use.

I'd read the detailed reviews, Koren, etc. on the 3200 before deciding to=20 go that way, and am generally well pleased - it's very fast, quiet, solid,= =20 has software with an excellent balance of automation and full manual=20 intervention ability, and as long as I can keep the film and glass=20 adequately clean, seems to dig out quite nice results from even quite=20 flawed originals, 35mm slides and negative slides included. But I don't=20 have the standard of comparison - would like to know what you're seeing and= =20 observe.

Thanks and best, Clive
 

hdfuhrman

Active Member
Clive,
If there are two Clive's and I confused the two. I apologize. It must be that the name Clive is not just given to anybody. It is given only to people with unique qualities. Your insights and perspecive is well appreciated.

Howard
 
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