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Sonnar Puzzle

G

Guest

Hi Folks,

I am hoping that someone can shed some light on the history of a pair of Sonnar 135m f4 lenses I recently picked up.

The first lens is made from chrome and has a serial number commencing 22, the second is far lighter, made from alloy and has a serial number commencing 32. Both are endorsed Carl Zeiss Jena and the alloy model also boasts a red ‘T’ around the front element. This lens is unusual in that it has a black collar around the top <font color="ff0000">•<font color="ff0000">•<font color="ff0000">•<font color="ff0000">•<font color="ff0000">•<font color="ff0000">•<font color="ff0000">•<font color="ff0000">• part that comprises of the filter ring.

The alloy lens is similar, but not identical in shape to a 1963 Jupiter 11 whilst the chrome lens is a totally different shape and slightly longer. All three lenses have differing depth of field markings.

When looking through the glass I find that all three lenses have 12 aperture blades and the coating is most evident in the Jupiter and least evident in the chrome Sonnar. I suspect that the alloy Sonnar has an early type of coating consistent with the ‘T’ marking.

My thoughts are that the chrome lens is probably from the mid to late 1930’s before the Zeiss factories were committed to war efforts and later ‘liberated’ to Russia. The alloy lens is the puzzle. Could it be from the period when the East Germans were still using the Zeiss name, but had altered the specifications?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Clive
 
>Hi Clive, I'm not sure what you want to know (and even less sure I'd know it) but Zeiss invented lens coating, sometime just before or early in World War II, and used the red T mark to designate lenses that had been been coated.

Your chrome lens will be uncoated and pre-war, your "T" lens is coated, and post-war. Your coated lens was probably designed to be teamed up with the post-war IIa/IIIa bodies. I don't know the serial numbers and relevant years for Zeiss.

Also, for what it's worth, my Russian 135 has probably the most obvious (purple-tinted) coating that I have seen on any lens!
 
Ben,

Thanks for your input, but I can't see how a post war lens designed to fit a iia - i.e. Carl Zeiss (West) camera would be endorsed 'Jena' or made out of alloy. I also believed that the 'T' marking was post war and restricted to CZ(W) lenses - hence the puzzle.

Clive
 
> Hi Clive, My T coated 50/2 Sonnar is Carl Zeiss Jena, and on a IIa! They made lenses for the West German bodies in both East and West post-war. During the war they even made 35 Biogons, 50 and 85 Sonnars T coated in Leica screw mount!

Check Stephen Gandy's camera quest site for more info: http://www.cameraquest.com/conrf.htm

Ben
 
Both East and West German Carl Zeiss lenses had "T" coatings.
The East were in Alloy mounts (of slightly inferior quality) and were called "Carl Zeiss Jena" and had a red "T". They were based on pre-war designs but had redesigned alloy mounts. Most of the East German lenses were introduced between 1945 and 1949, quite a few years before the west German Carl Zeiss had its factory up and running in Oberkochen.

The west German lenses were introduced in 1951 and until 1953 were marked "Zeiss Opton" and had a red "T". After 1953 they were marked just "Carl Zeiss" and did not have the T. The later versions also had a slightly different coating (its dark purple) the early coatings were quite blue. The West German lenses were to varying degrees re-designed (although the 28mm biogon was substantially redesigned) and were put in high quality chrome mounts. The West German lenses are better performers than the East German Lenses.

For American markets, Carl Zeiss, inc., (the American branch of the Carl Zeiss Foundation) could choose which lenses to supply with the new west German IIa and IIIa bodies. The East German lenses were less expensive, thus in the US it is more common to have a West German IIa or IIIa with an East German alloy lens - It gave the US retailers a much increased profit margin.

Lenses that were coated during the war, will have "Carl Zeiss Jena" on them and they will be in a heavy high quality chrome mount. They might also have a red dot on the filter ring. It is also possible that a pre-war lens was sent back to a factory for coating.

Going back to the original question, the alloy T coated lens is a post war East German lens, and the Chrome lens is likely to be either a pre-war lens that has been sent back to the factory for coating (after the war) or a lens made and coated during the war (this will have whats called a soft coating - this is very delicate!).
 
Thank you very much indeed for your information and the link to Mr. Gandy's useful website.

Looks like the chrome lens with the black trim is very early 1930's authentic Carl Zeiss, whilst the alloy lens is a cheap and nasty (but probably better optically) copy.

Thanks again,

Clive
 
During the war copper and chrome were highly controlled and scarce strategic commodies in Germany (and the US also). The Zeiss Jena factory converted to aluminum parts for all of its lenses as the war progressed and they ran out of brass chrome plated parts. The aluminum 135 mm lens is relatively rare and I have only seen two of them. All West German made lenses were made after the war and are marked either "Zeiss-Opton" or "Carl Zeiss". The "T" designation indicates the lens is coated. A small number of wartime made "T" marked lenses were fabricated at the Jena factory and most of these were 50mm lenses. After the war both the East German Jena factory and the West German Oberkocken factories used the "T" designation on coated lenses. The West German factory ended this practice much earlier than the East German Jena factory did. I have seen a great number of "T" marked West German Zeiss-Opton lenses but no "T" marked West German Carl Zeiss marked lenses. There was a trade in lens elements between the East German Zeiss and West German Zeiss factories that lasted for a farily long while. Just how long this went on no one knows. I have a West German made Contaprox (closeup set for the IIa and IIIa cameras) with a 50mm Coated Tessar lens not marked "T" but coated and labeled "Carl Zeiss Jena". The tripod mount on the focusing head is labeled "Carl Zeiss". So the lens elements were made in East Germany and the lens body, lens mount, extension tube, viewer and magnifier were made in West Germany. So it isn't unusual there would be a lot of confusion about the issue of the markings one finds on Contax lenses made prior to somewhere close to the time when the Berlin Wall was built. You can find out more at my website: http://www.Zeisscamera.com
 
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