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Regarding Contax N digital and Leica digital back

Clive, exactly what is it that you think you will learn from these extremely long winded, tecno duals between a couple of competitive egos going at each other?

This is a PHOTOGRAPHIC forum about CONTAX PHOTOGRAPHY. Shouldn't it be devoted to that subject? There are many sites dedicated to technical issues with a lot more expert opinions and EXAMPLES to counter balance one another.

Talk is cheap, and internet talk is even cheaper. Pictures on the other hand speak volumes.
 
Dirk,
I am not sure exactly what conclusion I can draw from the discussion. I, however, believe this thread was one of the most lively exchanges of ideas. While I would prefer that everyone deal with informed opinion rather than have some of the contributors dwell on who has better the credentials, the discussion also included a heated exchange of information from different people who have different points of view.

Even though it appeared Finney took personal offense to some of the discussion as an attack on him, rather than needing further support for his point of view, I support Shu-Hsien and Clive that Austin's and Finney's involvement made this discussion much more interesting and thought provoking. I would request that you reconsider Finney's exclusion from the forum. If you do permit him to remain a member of the forum, I would then ask Finney to be a good citizen, as I feel that he has alot to contribute, however I would prefer that he confine his comments to the subject not to the people.

Howard

ps I thought someone asked in this forum what scanner would be recommended. I was disappointed that the question was not addressed with the same fervor as the other issues covered. I would be interested in the forum's opinion and recommendations since Minolta just introduced 5400 dpi model. I thought with the collection of quality participants on this forum, I would get the best informed opinion.

hf
 
Sorry to disagree with your assessment, Marc. I too would like to see Finney stay with the list, if possible. Aesthetically, I can't find any glass producing more pleasing images to my eye than zeiss. Technologically, I see a company (contax) poised to be able to do greater things than they have already. However, there is something missing in my opinion yet, and I enjoy these sorts of discussions to help me understand where and why the aesthetics and the technology fall short of meeting eachother in this new age of photographic wonders. Sure, a picture speaks volumes, but I also want to know the "why" of what I see. You do good work with the ND and the TVSD, Marc. I enjoy the chance to analyse the photos, but I also like to know the limitations of these things for my own work, so I know how far I can push such images, and what I can expect of them. But if I'm in the minority of wanting to hear such things, maybe I'll have to see if I can strike up private conversations off the list instead. -Lynn
 
Dear Mark,

If you think this whole thing is a "duo", than simply deleting one side's account doen't solve the problem. Why not delete both accounts? It would just make the opinions on this forum to be monotonous.

Apparently the thread is off topic now, but I believe that happens from time to time, and don't nessessarily suggests deleting one's account. From the starting of the thread it WAS about Contax photography, on the digital side. And, one can always delete those off topic posts, instead of deleting one's account. Nevertheless, there is no interest of Finney to be on this forum, and it was not until Austin's attacking his credential and beliefs did he show up.

Let's enjoy the weekends. I will try to organize my photos of Nova Scotia.

-Shu-Hsien
 
How on now, Shu-Hsien,

> ...it was not until > Austin's attacking his credential and beliefs did he show up.

I didn't "attack" his credentials, I only pointed out that being involved with, what was reported as "IT" does not mean that someone knows anything about digital imaging, that's it. Do you expect your plumber to know anything about digital imaging because s/he is a plumber? Same thing.

Also, it was not "beliefs" that I challenged, it was someone claiming facts that were completely unsubstantiated...not beliefs. This has happened with him before in Alexander's Contax group, and not only I was "put off" by this behavior of his.

I wish not to talk about him, as he is not here, and I do not believe it's fair to do so...but please, don't make claims about me, and expect me not to respond!

Regards,

Austin
 
Dear Austin,

Sorry about the misleading wordings. I believe you were with good intentions.

IMHO it would not be Finney that'd "hurt" by deleting his account, and therefore making this kind of punishment deviated from its intentions.

Best, Shu-Hsien
 
Hello Marc,

Well, we are trying to tone it down to normal, here, aren't we, and that takes care of that side of answering I hope, in one or two senses. And then I'd like to respond on another side of your question mostly by posing a query of my own which I have been harboring for a while for the right time. This had better be over on the TVS forum which I presume you also read, since it is about that camera even if it is also mentioned here.

But let me try a little if I can directly, at least as it seems to me this evening, out in a wooded Oregon of the US for the time being. Pictures indeed can speak volumes - but only if one has enough knowledge to interpret and develop on what they may personally say.

As far as I can see it, photography has always been an art as embedded as any in its technologies - not different in principle from locating and grinding your own Lapis Lazuli, then adding the oils and solvents and whitewashing the canvases, before picking up a brush, if you were Hans Holbein (possibly my eras are slightly out of step there, hope not).

It gets to be more so nowadays, as there are very apparently some complex interactions between lenses and sensors and processing that change the rules of several games. Film at least allowed us pretty much to separate - know something about lenses, something about mechanisms, and something about films - then develop tastes for different combinations we liked to make (and remember the discussions about these!). And, we could choose one at a time, develop the others independently.

In digital, it's an ensemble which we cannot so easily control that clearly counts. When you can have two cameras as similar even to sensor technology, and as different in results, as the TVS-D and the Canon S50, for my interested ex&le, there seem definitely relevant questions. One has to learn things, come to understand, which one can get the clarity and depth of blue you want, as if it were pigments - and how you can think to influence the result.

Very often that information can be found only between the points of view of several persons who are quite interested in the subject. It's a great challenge of these days, not just in photography, to learn how we can provide opportunities, and learn manners to speak, where this works best.

A Chinese woman, president of a company, who I worked with for a while in a venture in Europe, gave me a nice proverb on this topic, which really was much our actual business, about 'three shoeshine men being equal to one strategic genius' (a particular general's name, in the real language of the saying).

Here in this forum we are trying something like that story and it is fruitful. The one thing older cultures don't help us as much in, to say with appropriate understatement, is where we need to build a new kind of respect and appreciation, thus treatment, between younger and older practitioners. We all live and develop and contribute in stages which can only be reached from that development longer now. We clearly need the fruits of all stages, one more ecology in our real world.

I think it's worth our patience to look at the plants at their different moments, help the seeds grow, and branches train, knowing storms or seasons may come again, then with better accommodated effects, and anyway don't last.

Best and regards to you, Clive
 
Clive,

After the heat of battle - "Calm, peace, reconciliation, and reflection." Clive - you are a person whose comments I respect and now I find that among your many virtues, you are a thought provoking philosopher. I appreciate your last comments and will reflect on them.

Good nite,

Howard
 
Clive and all. I did not advocate the expulsion of anyone from this forum. That is strictly Dirks'
call. Responses indicating that I did are incorrect.

I also understand the desire to be informed about ever changing digital options when the catagory is still in a relatively initial stage of development. The problem as I see it is the amount of misinformation...and the lack of an informed counter balance on a forum like this who's primary purpose is dedicated to something else. The moderator is not a MIT professor of digital engineering, he is a passionate photographer.

Yet, perhaps out of this can be born new ideas. For ex&le...

In the past Dirk has gone directly to informed sources for information. There are people who
do have established credentials, and are on the forefront of digital development. Perhaps an exchange between a "guest" and ourselves
would weed out the personal exchanges that force one to wade through endless posts featuring a few precious nuggets of potentially valuable information. It's just a thought, born from the excellent exchange between Leica technical people and Leica photographers that took place recently.

Clive, as poetic as your response was, I still can't figure out the practical value of these current exchanges. Your ex&le of painting doesn't resonate with me. I am a painter, both by training and practice. Artist do not spend endless hours discussing the merits of Thalo Blue verses Azure Blue. Or which brush is better. They simply DO it and see. In truth photography does involve more science, especially now. Yet it is still about the image regardless of the science.

The ex&le of the TVSD verses the Canon S-50 is best understood by looking at the comparison side-by-side. An exercise both Irakly and I have provided in the past for a number of different digital cameras. We need not have provided those comparisons on the test gallery for any other reason than to demonstrate the answers to questions others have asked. We already know the results ourselves.

I am not pressing for the elimination of exchanges like this thread has provided. I am only trying to figure out what any of it has to do with making better pictures. How does one use the information? Nothing here tells me which digital/lens combo will do a specific job at hand. Which scanner? Which PhotoShop plug in will strengthen the weakness of a specific digital camera? SOMETHING practical that can be applied.

For ex&le, my latest comparison between the TVSD and a Leica M was designed to determine whether a Digital P&S could be used to good effect for street photography (which is the traditional territory of rangefinders). The results can be found on the regular Gallery areas for Contax and Leica...or in my overall portfolios (some images are already being knocked off the Gallery page by new uploads, and it's critical to see all of the entries for the compairson). BTW, this idea was initiated on another forum, but had applications here since the P&S I used was the TVSD in comparison to my Leica M7 (and the new Canon G5). So, there are some practical applications to be learned about "controlling the digital capture/ lens combo" that you mentioned Clive. Practice reveals technique. Technique practiced reveals results. As the Nike ads say "Just Do It!"

Anyhow, good shooting to all of you, and post some photos for all to enjoy and learn from.
 
Howard,

Yesterday I was delighted to take delivery of one of the very first batch of Minolta 5400 scanners in the UK. I have been discussing this unit on and off with Vincent Oliver and the members of his Photo-i forums, so I won't duplicate my report here. If you're interested, take a look at the following thread on Photo-i:

http://www.photo-i.co.uk/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.pl?s=3f054f06159affff;act=ST;f=7;t=6;st=20


Marc,

Without wanting to fan the flames of the "negative" side of this thread any further, I feel it's a touch disingenuous to ask why "a site dedicated to photography is so loaded with technical babble". We are touching on issues here that are at the cutting edge of digital imaging technology and knowledge. It is very hard to get firm answers to a lot of the questions that have been raised, so the presence of one or more individuals who may have the industrial background and experience to answer them is hugely valuable, despite the unseemly chest-beating that has gone on. If you think that the ability to create beautiful and powerful images is unrelated to technical knowledge and awareness, then where does that leave the likes of Ansel Adams? Like it or not, photography is more dependent than most artforms upon technique, and this thread is one thread, not the whole forum. The discussion here has been very relevant as far as I'm concerned, and it seems I'm not alone judging by several of the comments above.

Your point about the practical applicability of the scientific and engineering aspects is fair enough, but until we have the base knowledge then how can we formulate good working practices? Going back to Ansel for a parallel, he couldn't have created the Zone system without a solid understanding of the deep technical aspects of film response characteristics, exposure and processing effects. The discussion we are having here is trying to pin down some of the equivalent basic elements within the uncharted reaches of the digital domain.

Best regards,

-= mike =-
 
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