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Regarding Contax N digital and Leica digital back

Hi Mike,

> That's what is so rewarding about traditional B&W > print making. In the digital domain we are a long way from reaching > that point.

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that you can't get better B&W prints, digitally, than you could in the darkroom? I'd disagree with you if that is your claim. Now, I'll qualify that with what do you mean by "digital". If you mean from a digital capture, like a camera, I'd agree...that the current digital c&ture devices (cameras), with SOME exception to monochromatic cameras...are not as good as film can give you...but that's only image capture.

If you scan B&W film, and print using a quad-tone printing system, you, IMO, will get better prints than you can get from a darkroom...in a lot of aspects. Only one is lacking, IMO, and that is black blacks...though, behind glass, or in an image standing by it self, you will be hard pressed to see that. As far as sharpness/resolution (detail) and tonality, I find my prints from a quad-tone system are better.

Regards,

Austin
 
Hi Yin,

> I am saddened too that Finney has been kicked out of the list. I am > not sure that Austin himself would wish this to be the case?

You are correct, I do not wish that to be the case. Obviously, it is not my decision, and I in no way made any petition to Dirk or anyone to do so.

> I am afraid Austin himself did not > sound very diplomatic right off from the beginning, but was on the > dismissive side.

You are correct. I was dismissive. As I have clearly stated, and this is not news to anyone here or to Finney, so I will state it again, I believe Finney believes he knows more than he actually does. He states things as fact, not as opinion...whether they are right or wrong, that does not matter...that alone puts other people off, and when challenged, he does not behave well, and makes things personal. Typically, when someone challenges a claim I make, I then provide substantiation to my statements...and the other party provides substantiation as to why they disagree...not so in Finney's case. I wish it were different, but it is not uncommon for someone who is over their head to behave this way. That is not meant at all as a shot at Finney, just an observation I've made over time.

Austin
 
Hi Shu-Hsien,

I am uncomfortable talking about someone who is not here...and I am curious why you want to continue to represent him here. Because you choose to politic for him, I will respond with my opinion of the situation...and hopefully, this will be that last time...

> Finney confirmed that he was kicked out of the list. He think it's > hilarious though.

The fact that "he thinks it's hilarious" does not surprise me, and shows his demeanor...basically, he has little regard or respect for other people. That is not conducive to garnering respect, and for interacting with other people.

> Just like what I said, his [Finney] showing up > here was to contribute,

Yes, as well as everyone else's, but most people contribute by allowing what they say to be challenged/questioned, and not stating their opinion as fact. When challenged, most people would respond, if what they said was correct, with substance that substantiates their claims. Finney simply dismissed the challenges. That is not a discussion, that is a lecture. I do not find that behavior acceptible for a discussion group, and that is the rub I have with Finney.

> He was the one who gave me explanations...

Yes, I am sure he has...lots of people can give you explanations...but how do you know what he has explained is correct?

> From now on I don't think I'll > be willing to refer to his post here on the forum any more.

Bringing in a third party, and making claims on their behalf is tricky. What the issue is, is the statements can't be questioned first hand...and that can create a problem, obviously as it did here. Statements made on web sites, and by people, as in your discussions with Finney, can just go unchallenged. That is why there is so much misinformation out on the Internet. In a scientific world, as you should know, papers written are subjected to peer review, and in doing so, the claims in them must have substance...but in the case of web pages, and other Internet communications, that scrutiny typically does not happen, and people get away with disseminating misinformation. Open forums are a little different, in that people, though not necessarily peers, may challenge what others say. I find that a lot of self proclaimed experts do not like to participate in on-line forums, as they get challenged, and they are get exposed for what they are by the challenges.

I believe you think of Finney as some "sage", but I find him as someone completely different. As you well know, I don't think Finney knows what he's talking about, and I certainly find his manner (or lack of) and tone offensive. I am not the only one who has mentioned this publicly to him.

Regards,

Austin
 
Austin,

I don't know why the fact that Finney finds it hilarious shows his demeanor and lack of respect for others. Finney was kicked off the forum. Well, if it's me, I would laugh too, and tell myself, what the heck, who cares about that forum anyway, it doesn't matter to me, the whole thing is so silly... I think that would be a normal reaction!

The alternative reaction, to feel hurt and nurse a bruised ego and pride or harbour resentment, is much more negative, right? Or do you think a person who is kicked off the forum will go begging to be readmitted? I think the most sane reaction is to laugh the matter off.

And dear Austin, you are certainly entitled to challenge others' assertions and statements, even if they were originally intended for a close personal friend rather than for all of us, but I feel that the challenge could be made in a friendlier, less offensive tone, hence less prone to offend and invite a defensive, hostile reply. If you ask nicely, you will probably get a civil reply. The dismissive tone which you adopted only served to antagonise the receiving party and set the tone for a heated exchange. Finney has not behaved as friendly as he could too and I think the part where he challenged who earns more sucks big-time, but what I am trying to say is that both sides contributed to the fire as they aggravated each other.

So far, Lynn, Sheu, Howard, and myself will like Finney to stay in the forum, while Austin himself do not find his explusion necessary. Are there any others who feel this way? Alright, Finney himself may not be interested in the forum. But I think it is a matter of doing things the right way for this forum, that we do not close off this forum to any persons just because a heated exchange of words occured, for which I do not feel the blame should be totally shouldered by just one party.

Dirk?
 
And by the way, Austin, in the other thread for Contax Digital TVS review, I challenged Finney in a way too, when Sheu said his IT friend found that of 5mp digicams, the Contax produced the least noise. I asked him on what basis his friend arrived at that conclusion, did he read some test comparison report or something?

So I do see where you are coming from, I myself do not like unsubstantiated claims and view them with a pinch of salt. But in my honest opinion, firstly challenges can be made in a non-offensive, polite manner; and secondly, if answers are made not to your satisfaction, well, no need to argue it out. People don't owe us any answers, simply because their original claims were not intended to be made to us in the first place anyway. Whether we accept their ideas or claims is up to ourselves.
 
I don't like Austin Franklin: that is my right and I exercise it, early and often. But this is entirely a petty matter compared to banning people from free speech. As an American on the 4th of July, I must remind Dirk that people fight wars of independence on this very principle. Tread carefully, or cripple the very forum you seek to nurture.

It's fitting that the debate between Finney and Franklin - to describe it charitably - occurred under a digital heading. Digital advancement in general, and digital photography in particular, spells cataclysm. As credited to Bismark: "To retain respect for sausages and laws, one must not watch them in the making." Discussion of photography's future, conducted as a democratic process, will not be a pretty sight. I don't see a rigid and agreeable forum as any place where deeper insights can be gained.

On the perils of closed discussion and closed forums, please read Shu-Hsien's history lesson on China a second time. And why the HELL is this forum closed to the reading public, anyways? Europeans regularly criticize American exercise of power, but are quick to pull a lever or two when it suits thems.

My policy position for Dirk: reinstate Finney, open the forums to universal read access, and let discoursing adults be adults (or children). It's just a bloody Net forum.

(Don't like my post? Blame Yeo!)
 
Guys,

Let's drop it. Pointing fingers at others and justifying why you feel one way or another when the other person does not have a way to present their point of view, gets us nowhere. Everyone did the best (sic) they knew how in the heat of passion. Feelins are nether right or wrong, they are just feelings. Let's drop the subject and move on a discuss photo issues.

Howard

Howard
 
Rico, that is a great Bismarck quote - made my day. Besides the rest...cheers.

Reading that rest, would only vote my positive for Finney, but not for open-to-internet. Privacy is such an important privilege, which I really appreciate in Europe. To be private is essential portion of being free. I wouldn't be here where someone could find my name on a search, if it were the least bit open, learned to guard that. You could never have many persons' truer comment if they could be generally 'seen' - hence the lack of the substance on other forums.

Best, Clive
 
Dear Rico,

(Waggle finger), now now, let's please retain polite language as the way forward, or else it will just lead to another argument!

And dear Howard, I wasn't so much pointing fingers as trying to pin-point what may have started the heated exchange and how it could have been otherwise. If we are to stop something similar from happening again, we need to identify how things escalated and how we can prevent that from happening again in the future. That's what I was trying to achieve. We can't just bury the past and pretend nothing has happened.

I also did not feel comfortable keeping quiet when Sheu was obviously feeling distressed, and Finney expelled. That is not the way to move forward, with lingering unresolved unhappiness somewhere as well as general sense of unfairness by most of the participants here.

But I do agree we all can learn from this, then drop it and move on. Sheu has learned not to extract wholesale another person's comments, of that I am sure. I think both Austin and Finney need a chance to shake hands too and start anew. They may or may not wish to do this, but the avenue must be open to them, if they so desire.

So far, Lynn, Sheu, Howard, Ricu, Clive, Austin and myself are not in favour of expelling Finney from the forum. As Howard mentioned, it all happened in the heat of passion, and we all know how sensitive we guys can be when our ego is bruised! Dirk, it's your move, then we can let the whole matter rest. Thanks.

And go back to discussing Contax's digital progress.
 
Dear Austin,

I was very surprised to see your replying to my last post. I was totally talking about Finney! I don't think I had ever mentioned even a single word about you.

Please, do not feel uncomfortable that I believe in Finney. No, I don't view Finney as a "sage" (I look it up in the dictionary, since I feel kind of weird), nor did I ever try to represent him. He is simply the most talented engineer that I've known. Few can survive in this kind of economy in Silicon Valley, especially for foreigners like us. Besides, I believe I have the right to choose whom to believe in. I understand that he is proud and maybe sometimes arrogant, but I think he deserve it. We are very good friends, and just had a great chat on classical music.

Please, I have the right to feel your tone to be offensive in the very first post, just like the way you are feeling about Finney's.

And please, do not refer to the things happened in the contaxslr.com forum. Finney had been here only for 1.5 days and he is not here anymore, and I believe people have not yet have the time to see the truth.

Often, the harder you try to pursuade people, the weaker yourself would be. The old Chinese saying, "The softer you are, the stronger you will be." can teach us many things.

I, however, had been a gorgeous mood until I saw your post. The fireworks was magnificent and I was just about to move on.

Dear Dirk,

I find these posts can just last forever. Feel free to delete my posts, if in your view it is better to do so.

Regards, Shu-Hsien
 
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