Panasonic M4/3 watchers thread

[AURA PA]

Despite the wishing the reality might be that no way is the market going to pay premium prices for ultra-small camera bodies no matter how powerful they might be. They will always be constrained by lack of user conveniences because they cannot be fitted into a body thus small. By this I mean - IBIS, full mechanical shutter, big grip, fast video, articulated lcd, huge big bright evf .... even a large battery. Why pay big money for a tiny camera body when you can get a 'full size' one for much the same money and get all the frills supplied as well?

Aside from Leica, I do not believe the market will support "small premium". My main cameras are suited to purpose - durable and large. I do like the feature set Olympus crammed into the OM-5. A very capable hiker and immune to the elements. A WR G100 with IBIS might be an interesting direction for Panasonic.

 

[ttbirds]

From Panasonic, I am hoping for 4 cameras (3 of them being MFT). I don't really expect any to materialise.

1. G9 ii with updated sensor and PDAF
2. GH5S ii with updated MA sensor and PDAF and no IBIS. Support for internal recording of 10bit 4k 60fps unlimited.
3. GM5 ii with PDAF, modern EIS, modern BSI 20mp sensor bundled with a PZ version of the 12-32mm lens.
3. A compact 1" sensor camera with PDAF and a low megapixel count (8mp is fine) for vlogging and low light video similar to the packaging of the Sony ZV-1F or ZV-1 with a starting FL equivalent of 18mm.

I think Panasonic can easily rival Sony in most of the camera markets with PDAf and better price/performance ratio.

 

[Tom Caldwell]

From Panasonic, I am hoping for 4 cameras (3 of them being MFT). I don't really expect any to materialise.

1. G9 ii with updated sensor and PDAF
2. GH5S ii with updated MA sensor and PDAF and no IBIS. Support for internal recording of 10bit 4k 60fps unlimited.
3. GM5 ii with PDAF, modern EIS, modern BSI 20mp sensor bundled with a PZ version of the 12-32mm lens.
3. A compact 1" sensor camera with PDAF and a low megapixel count (8mp is fine) for vlogging and low light video similar to the packaging of the Sony ZV-1F or ZV-1 with a starting FL equivalent of 18mm.

I think Panasonic can easily rival Sony in most of the camera markets with PDAf and better price/performance ratio.

Panasonic cameras are well built, reliable, and last. They have a pleasing habit of making new camera types into niche positions in the market. Rarely do they serially update their models but they can do if they are popular enough - GX7->GX9 or just keeping a 'value' model fresh with annual makeovers - GF7-GX850.

But the process seems to leave some orphans - the GM series and the GX8. However I don't necessarily think this warrants complaint. More like praise is better.

The GX8 has been relished by those that bought it as have the GM series - these cameras still fulfil roles just as well they ever did when new. Not to be outdone Olympus abandoned the presumably slow selling Pen-F to those owners who were lucky enough to acquire one whilst they lasted. This is not just a Panasonic thing and there is no doubt that Olympus/OMDS has its revered camera bodies as well. But I might argue that Olympus/OMDS has stayed closer to its established model lines as serially updated and Panasonic has been more interested and adventurous in testing niche product markets. Perhaps they have more resources and inclination to do this.

The upshot with myself is that I have tended to buy Panasonic bodies as horses for courses and find myself with a whole bunch of camera bodies still in use from ponies to thoroughbred stallions. Age is not wearying them and I still like and use my originals up up to 10 years since they were bought. Of course what we buy is still very much personal preference - but I personally quite like mixing and matching different size/style camera bodies with mix and match lenses used with them.

Other mount formats still follow the proposition that we just like the build type of their principal type - be it dslr, or faux-dslr body each body type is made in endless variations and updated serially. One body, many lenses and maybe someone can buy your last body before it end up in the attic? For a while my diet was Canon EF dslr and I kept a couple of my previous purchases as supplementary units where I could mount different lenses. But the result of playing 'amateur as a pro' was a big lift into a venue, a car boot of kit on a trip, and and impossible pack for going overseas.

Better that I can make up compact with a GM5 and use the same lens kit to draw lenses for a G9 when carting size is not a big issue.

To return to the thread issue:
I think that the popular G9 is worth an update - it is a very good camera and still punching its weight well after a potential replacement date. Good buying now and mine out of the first batch into Australia is still well loved I don't feel left behind by using it as my 'best' M4/3 camera body. The reception of the OM-1 bodes well for another G9 tyoe and I think that OMDS has had plenty of time in the sun to be able to keep sales pace with a thoroughly made over G9.

I cannot comment on the video types as I am not into video but can only comment that short of Sony types the 1" sensor should be passe compared to the 4/3 sensor and the G100 seems quite a good video camera as it is - even though I don't do video I can see by the attention to audio alone that maybe the G100 light has been under a bushel as far as the M4/3 audience is concerned. But this is just an opinion from a not-video type, I don't see why Panasonic has to ape Sony when they have proven that they can make good original stuff out of their own works.

The GM5 is a hard one. I doubt if there is a market outside rusted in GM5 types who would not be willing to buy a simple made-over GM5 type for the quite a lot of money that a new GM5 would have to be sold at. There will be a market for a GM5 just as it is with latest firmware and a later sensor. They will have to wait for the GM5 bodies still regularly being used to die of overwork or old age before the present owners feel any need to buy a simple sensor update.

Of course they might create a sensation with global shutter and the latest 25mp sensor thereby leap-frogging the updated GM5 to the premium product at premiumn price. If enough buyers could be found at prime pricing then such a camera could sell in modest numbers for years - just like the Sony RX100 series.

IBIS in the GM5? Not sure if it is absolutley necessary for a camera however the IBIS hype now makes it difficult to mass market a camera without it.

PDAF on any or all of these cameras - well this is another sales furphy - Panasonic has made a business out of its impressive CDAF capabilities and this likens their approach to sticking with Len-IS for so long and then acing the industry with their introduction of IBIS and linking it to existing Lens-IS to give dual stabilisation.

Sony's CDAF was so bad they really needed PDAF to get themselves out of that box. Now that Panasonic's CDAF is so good then adding PDAF to this technology can only be furthering an already existing excellently developed focusing system.

Not being tied to Sony's sensors is also probably a good long term idea.

 

[Tom Caldwell]

Aside from Leica, I do not believe the market will support "small premium". My main cameras are suited to purpose - durable and large. I do like the feature set Olympus crammed into the OM-5. A very capable hiker and immune to the elements. A WR G100 with IBIS might be an interesting direction for Panasonic.

A new owner of the G100 and attracted when it reached a price point where I felt that I could buy one on pure speculation I have found it perhaps a lineal descendant of the GM5 albeit twice the size and weight. It feels good in hand and rugged enough. But it seems to be a high quality industrial plastic contraption with no personal deep knowledge of how it is built. I can only really fault it as somewhat uncomfortable to grip.

Guessing that Panasonic is not so much directly pursuing the hype of its V-Log capabilities but should have marketed it general purpose role more heavily. Like the GM5 it is a fully capable simple camera but it is more like a GM5 on steroids by comparison with what the GM5 is capable of doing. Not that it replaces the GM5 but maybe what a GM5 with at least the stills capability of the G100 might offer the market. From memory the video capability of the GM series was somewhat limited by battery size and heat sink capacity for high performance video. Surely the G100 must be a minimum size configuration for half decent current day video.

However just maybe the G100 was an experiment in making an affordable type with good quality 'plastic' camera into a niche where price might talk loudly? If so by the comments on forum it has not been a roaring success. But then it has been positioned too close to the GX9 both in size, price and features to be its own individualised product and maybe that was why the V-Logging capability has been emphasised?

Weatherproofing? This is likely to push it up market beyond the price point of the GX9 - on the other hand I have seen rumours that the GX9 has been discontinued (whatever that might indicate).

Where to now? I could not even guess. The GX9 is a better camera than the G100 in my opinion but the price could make the G100 quite popular if Panasonic chose to make it a selling point. Maybe Panasonic could do this either with the G100 or a successor model but I might wonder if they would extend this to weatherproofing.

 

[AlbertM43user]

[...]

But the process seems to leave some orphans - the GM series and the GX8. However I don't necessarily think this warrants complaint. More like praise is better.

Dear friend, can't you spot the similarity here? GMs are the smallest and GX8 is the largest RF line of product.

I am 100% agree with you in your previous post that when one looking for small/tiny/pocketable, normally they would expect that those camera would be dwarfed on functionality. It directly drive another side of the formula protable = lower spec = lower cost. If Panny cannot take advantage over scale of production to lower its design cost on miniaturized the camera, it should not work.

On another hand, I have strong interest on RF flat top design camera simply because the camera can be smaller than the hunchback dslr design. The size of GX8 was a stopper to me when I was looking to upgrade GX7 because of its increased size. I asked myself if I don't mind to use a bigger camera for the higher spec, why not go for a G instead?

I suppose the market response (I met some gray market offer of GM1 + 12-32 new asked for <US$200 a few years ago in gray market), and more people owned GX8 only after a massive discount some years after its first released, should tell Panny what the market expectation would be: Small = low cost, large size in premium price = more conventional dslr design. So GF9/10 had been continued after GM5 for the entry class/small size sector and no more GX8.

The GX8 has been relished by those that bought it as have the GM series - these cameras still fulfil roles just as well they ever did when new. Not to be outdone Olympus abandoned the presumably slow selling Pen-F to those owners who were lucky enough to acquire one whilst they lasted. This is not just a Panasonic thing and there is no doubt that Olympus/OMDS has its revered camera bodies as well. But I might argue that Olympus/OMDS has stayed closer to its established model lines as serially updated and Panasonic has been more interested and adventurous in testing niche product markets. Perhaps they have more resources and inclination to do this.

Very true. Would it be because Panny still has a much sound financial background that OMDS does not? If OMDS will waste resource to test for market acceptance, it could be in trouble soon. In recent years, OMDS tried to concentrate on birding and so far it works. I guess the Pen line of products could therefore be left behind.

The upshot with myself is that I have tended to buy Panasonic bodies as horses for courses and find myself with a whole bunch of camera bodies still in use from ponies to thoroughbred stallions. Age is not wearying them and I still like and use my originals up up to 10 years since they were bought. Of course what we buy is still very much personal preference - but I personally quite like mixing and matching different size/style camera bodies with mix and match lenses used with them.

Other mount formats still follow the proposition that we just like the build type of their principal type - be it dslr, or faux-dslr body each body type is made in endless variations and updated serially. One body, many lenses and maybe someone can buy your last body before it end up in the attic? For a while my diet was Canon EF dslr and I kept a couple of my previous purchases as supplementary units where I could mount different lenses. But the result of playing 'amateur as a pro' was a big lift into a venue, a car boot of kit on a trip, and and impossible pack for going overseas.

Better that I can make up compact with a GM5 and use the same lens kit to draw lenses for a G9 when carting size is not a big issue.

To return to the thread issue:
I think that the popular G9 is worth an update - it is a very good camera and still punching its weight well after a potential replacement date. Good buying now and mine out of the first batch into Australia is still well loved I don't feel left behind by using it as my 'best' M4/3 camera body. The reception of the OM-1 bodes well for another G9 tyoe and I think that OMDS has had plenty of time in the sun to be able to keep sales pace with a thoroughly made over G9.

I cannot comment on the video types as I am not into video but can only comment that short of Sony types the 1" sensor should be passe compared to the 4/3 sensor and the G100 seems quite a good video camera as it is - even though I don't do video I can see by the attention to audio alone that maybe the G100 light has been under a bushel as far as the M4/3 audience is concerned. But this is just an opinion from a not-video type, I don't see why Panasonic has to ape Sony when they have proven that they can make good original stuff out of their own works.

The biggest mistake of Panny on G100, IMHO is not put on a GX9 5-axis IBIS sensor onto G100. Even the older 16Mp GX85 sensor would make G100 better for video. Without IBIS (better if it can enjoy DUAL IS), run and gun video would become much more steady, could be only second to a proper gimbal. Also the time limit on 4K video recording is another joke to market G100 as a vlogging camera. How can Panny know every YouTuber will stop its vlogging in short footages of a few minutes only? Specially for live steaming!

We should know audio is important to video. There are many low cost but good enough external mic around for the job. Integrated mic and audio system of G100 is nice to have but is not the best tool.

I am a still shooter, but when I shoot video with GX850, I know its shortage even lens IS is used.

Not sure why G100 was approved by the management of Panny. If I was sitting in the management board, I shall never approve such model. I shall suggest to move the location of evf of GX85/9 from left to center, replace it with a G85 4:3 OLED unit @ a lower magnification might be, add a bigger hand grip like the one used on GX7 or bigger, so more space to use a larger battery than the BLG10, replace the entire chassis with industrial plastic for a new GX100 might give a much bigger wow factor than G100. (Oh dear, there is the G85/G95... ).

[...]

IBIS in the GM5? Not sure if it is absolutley necessary for a camera however the IBIS hype now makes it difficult to mass market a camera without it.

Try to shoot video on run and gun, you might find the usefulness of IBIS/DUAL IS vs lens IS.

Although video might be a rare thing for most here (or on DPR), it is actually the hope of the market of tomorrow.

PDAF on any or all of these cameras - well this is another sales furphy - Panasonic has made a business out of its impressive CDAF capabilities and this likens their approach to sticking with Len-IS for so long and then acing the industry with their introduction of IBIS and linking it to existing Lens-IS to give dual stabilisation.

Sony's CDAF was so bad they really needed PDAF to get themselves out of that box. Now that Panasonic's CDAF is so good then adding PDAF to this technology can only be furthering an already existing excellently developed focusing system.

Not being tied to Sony's sensors is also probably a good long term idea.

Agreed.

Indeed for a non bird shooter as myself, the current CDAF can meet with 99% of my focus-recompose style of shooting. I suppose not every camera owner would shoot birds?

 

[Tom Caldwell]

Dear friend, can't you spot the similarity here? GMs are the smallest and GX8 is the largest RF line of product.

I am 100% agree with you in your previous post that when one looking for small/tiny/pocketable, normally they would expect that those camera would be dwarfed on functionality. It directly drive another side of the formula protable = lower spec = lower cost. If Panny cannot take advantage over scale of production to lower its design cost on miniaturized the camera, it should not work.

On another hand, I have strong interest on RF flat top design camera simply because the camera can be smaller than the hunchback dslr design. The size of GX8 was a stopper to me when I was looking to upgrade GX7 because of its increased size. I asked myself if I don't mind to use a bigger camera for the higher spec, why not go for a G instead?

I suppose the market response (I met some gray market offer of GM1 + 12-32 new asked for <US$200 a few years ago in gray market), and more people owned GX8 only after a massive discount some years after its first released, should tell Panny what the market expectation would be: Small = low cost, large size in premium price = more conventional dslr design. So GF9/10 had been continued after GM5 for the entry class/small size sector and no more GX8.



Very true. Would it be because Panny still has a much sound financial background that OMDS does not? If OMDS will waste resource to test for market acceptance, it could be in trouble soon. In recent years, OMDS tried to concentrate on birding and so far it works. I guess the Pen line of products could therefore be left behind.


The biggest mistake of Panny on G100, IMHO is not put on a GX9 5-axis IBIS sensor onto G100. Even the older 16Mp GX85 sensor would make G100 better for video. Without IBIS (better if it can enjoy DUAL IS), run and gun video would become much more steady, could be only second to a proper gimbal. Also the time limit on 4K video recording is another joke to market G100 as a vlogging camera. How can Panny know every YouTuber will stop its vlogging in short footages of a few minutes only? Specially for live steaming!

We should know audio is important to video. There are many low cost but good enough external mic around for the job. Integrated mic and audio system of G100 is nice to have but is not the best tool.

I am a still shooter, but when I shoot video with GX850, I know its shortage even lens IS is used.

Not sure why G100 was approved by the management of Panny. If I was sitting in the management board, I shall never approve such model. I shall suggest to move the location of evf of GX85/9 from left to center, replace it with a G85 4:3 OLED unit @ a lower magnification might be, add a bigger hand grip like the one used on GX7 or bigger, so more space to use a larger battery than the BLG10, replace the entire chassis with industrial plastic for a new GX100 might give a much bigger wow factor than G100. (Oh dear, there is the G85/G95... ).


Try to shoot video on run and gun, you might find the usefulness of IBIS/DUAL IS vs lens IS.

Although video might be a rare thing for most here (or on DPR), it is actually the hope of the market of tomorrow.


Agreed.

Indeed for a non bird shooter as myself, the current CDAF can meet with 99% of my focus-recompose style of shooting. I suppose not every camera owner would shoot birds?

I did not buy a G100 earlier because I was not interested in video - period. So now that i have bought it things that make for better video are not needed so i end up with a camera bought for less than I was paying for GM5 camera bodies that works like a supercharged GM5 but is twice the size and weight.

All cameras are compromises - to make the G100 truly competitive with the GX9 is to make it just as expnsive and to supersede the GX9 as a product.

My seat on the Pansonic board says that the G100 is a build concept that is somewhat cheaper than the GX9 and can be sold profitably at a lower price point than the GX9 if this is needed. But if they can get a better market price - then go for it.

I am willing to put up with some shortcomings in the G100 to get the buy price I found. All products marketed are in theory some sort of arm wrestle between vendor and customer where the vendor wishes to maximise profit and the purchaser wishes to buy at the lowest price that does not make the vendor exit the business of making the toys that amuse the purchaser and his or her money.

The GX9 might not have enough price wriggle room to allow price discounting. The G100 is such a build type that might have more marketing flexibility. I don't really think that the G100 is a huge marketing success and now blame their marketing department for emphasising the V-Log capability for what is not a bad general purpose camera body.

But to make the G100 a more sophisticated product is to remove the price flexibility from the marketing prospective and to make it into a serious rival to the GX9 which technically is a RF-Style body (maybe the G95? - you know the one that few ever mention .... )

So I don't know which way Panasonic might jump from here - even an out and out guess would be fraught.

But maybe they could just gain a bit more market share from a price competitive G100 if they thought that this might work. In any case it probably needs more types like myself pushing the idea that the G100 is not a bad entry level camera body for stills shooting purposes. .... and if it can still be sold at a better profit margin then 'go for it' ....

Shades of people who would not buy a GM5 because it was lacking in some manner and put off buying one waiting for the fire sale that never came. I suspect that the G100 might be going to go out in a somewhat similar cloud of missed regrets.

But I have never felt that I wished I had bought a GX8 or Pen-F - so everybody's needs are different and that is why variety is good.

 

[Downunder]

Do birds with metal wings count ?

 

[Felice62]

I like both Olympus and Panasonic lenses . Olympus/OMDS bodies are good but I have decided that I prefer the Panasonic body interface and I have become used to is. As I have a few bodies switching between them - often relying on finger memory is easier when their user interface is similar. The same thing could apply for multiple Olympus/OMDS bodies.

Panasonic has drastically slowed down its M4/3 camera body releases since they opted to make L-Mount gear as well.
2017 GX850/G9
2018 'GF10'/GX9
2019 G95
2020 G100
2021 GH5II
2022 GH6
2023 None so far

Not that I am in any hurry to update as since my GM1 nine years ago I have continued to use all of my Panasonic bodies - none of them are retired even though the amount of use between varies quite a lot. The G9 of late 2017 is still a great camera body and I don't feel that my work is any the worse because I have not been able to update it. I am not into video at all so the GH5II an GH6 hold no attractions for me despite being known for very sophisticated cameras. The G100 was also not on my radar as 'entry level video' until the price looked tempting and I found that it does make a very good light stills camera which was quite well hidden by the V-Log marketing hype. The G95 did not interest when I had the G9 and GX9 and the GX850 and its limited market successor the GF10 have no evf which I need these days.

All this and no new M4/3 camera body from Panasonic this year so far. If I can borrow a riff from the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" - "Speculation is useless" and "It ain't easy being in the camera industry". At the moment.

But I will allow myself the observation that Panasonic seem to have tried to offer at least one new camera body for the M4/3 mount each year.

After chatting about how the fact that the G100 is only a little smaller than the GX9 on another post I said that the G100 seems distinctly lighter so I did measure weights - in each case just the camera body alone without caps but with battery and SD card in place. A added the GM5 as a benchmark:

GM5 222 gm (has a small Franiec grip attached)
G100 346 gm
GX9 448 gm

Nothing in M4/3 can match a GM body for lightest weight. But the G100 is only about 100 gm lighter than the GX9 but in terms of the 'feel' of its mass it feels even lighter.

I am fine with the release cycle from Panasonic. WE don't need extra cams per year, IMO.
The GM and GX series are great cams packing very likeable features in such handy form factors.
The gx80 is my gem from that series. It replaced the gm5 my eyes begun to have troubles with.

As a dual system user (like many among us) when I was on the fence for a lightweight, consumer rated cam, having to choose between the g100 and the x-t200, I picked the latter. Both are very comparable but I wanted a Fujifilm with a Bayer sensor ans I am very happy I picked the x-t200.
I liked g100 evf but I wanted a true mechanical shutter for faster flash synchronisation, which the g100 lacked.
Now looking forward to my wonderful go replacement, of and when Panasonic will announce a true successor to it.
Gh6 didn't really feel good once tried it, though sensor alone is a nice upgrade.

 

[Tom Caldwell]

I am fine with the release cycle from Panasonic. WE don't need extra cams per year, IMO.
The GM and GX series are great cams packing very likeable features in such handy form factors.
The gx80 is my gem from that series. It replaced the gm5 my eyes begun to have troubles with.

As a dual system user (like many among us) when I was on the fence for a lightweight, consumer rated cam, having to choose between the g100 and the x-t200, I picked the latter. Both are very comparable but I wanted a Fujifilm with a Bayer sensor ans I am very happy I picked the x-t200.
I liked g100 evf but I wanted a true mechanical shutter for faster flash synchronisation, which the g100 lacked.
Now looking forward to my wonderful go replacement, of and when Panasonic will announce a true successor to it.
Gh6 didn't really feel good once tried it, though sensor alone is a nice upgrade.

It gets to be a conundrum. I am in no hurry to upgrade any of my Panasonic camera bodies. They will be fine for any foreseeable future. I don't realistically need more exciting features. I have not even tried the high definition images that the G9 can produce. Such files would quickly become a storage-capacity hazard - just as much as high speed burst capture can quickly achieve 20-100 image bursts of much the same thing - it would be nice if I could just extract the best image out of the burst but curating through huge fast bursts of much the same image in slow motion is a real chore. Back in my dslr days the shot (now) painfully slow rat-a-tat delicious-sounding shutter rattle was quite enough to get the perfect portrait shot of your subject. In fact even then it sometimes became an issue on which of the three best out of six was the very best. On a theatre dress rehearsal shoot with single shot captures I can get 600-800 images let alone take tham as bursts of '20' at a time ....

The other side of the conundrum is that new bodies help keep the system alive for new users. In a world of only new is good the fact that the G9 might be cheap and very capable is lost to a market where anything more than 12 months since launch can be seen as quite out of date. Canon, Nikon and Sony seem to get a way with a a constant flurry of updates of much the same thing made into many price points. To buy an entry level Canon dslr was to see the difference in build quality that the expensive versions offered. And yet Canon built its business on the reflection of quality from Pro users with camera bodies that most amateurs could never make themselves afford.

The big advantage of M4/3 is not just in the lenses but in the wide range of body sizes and styles it has offered. Rather than buy a GM1 and update it regularly (if it were possible). I was able to add a GX7 then a GM5 then G9 and (not so much update but add) a GX9. The GX85 was probably unnecessary and a mistake but the GX7 is still happily used. The G100 just fills another niche body. If this were one of the majors then we might just serially upgrade one camera body and keep the others as spares, sell them or give them away to relations.

With M4/3 I have a whole fleet of them and find it hard to give any of them up ......

 

[Felice62]

You are hurting me! The gx80 is my dear, lovely, beautiful cam...

That said, I do agree with your exposure (except the gx80 part)